the new Thor
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thibodeaux
- Posts: 8121
- Joined: Thu May 20, 2004 7:32 pm
Then why are you debating with me, while also agreeing with Catt's "There aren't enough female super heroes"?Vince wrote:LOL! My very first response to it was "what a joke".
I don't disagree with the notion that there aren't enough mainstream black superheroes either.
Black people are pretty well represented in comics. Far more than the 12% of the population they represent, and certainly more than the black comic buying audience.
What about Asians or Hispanics? There are more Asians on the planet than anyone else, yet aside from Jubilee, Sunfire, and that new Team movie Marvel is developing with Pixar I can't think of any Asians off the top of my head. Oh yeah, Psylocke, but she's actually British and just happens to be in an Asian's body. Hispanics are 22% of the population in this country and while I know there are some, there aren't many. Miles Morales is half black, half Asian and is the Ultimate universe's Spider-Man. Other than that, there's a few Hispanic X-Men, but none that are very big.
Oddly, instead of creating a solid female or minority hero and letting them stand or fail on their own, they seem to decide they have to take an established and popular character and change the person under the mask to the desired hero.
And they'll ride that until interest falls off and readership actually goes into decline. Then they bring back white dude and hail the return of who ever.
This is the truth.
While they do try and make new characters now and then, like Blue Marvel (Marvel's black Superman) both companies tend to "reinvent" existing characters with new costumes, powers, skin colors, and genitalia. Both companies have started to get backlash from it too. People are sick of seeing variants on existing characters for the sake of diversity. It cheapens the characters.
Part of the problem might be that you have white men writing the minority or female characters.
Actually, there are more females involved in writing comics than you'd think. However, a woman writing a female character doesn't guarantee success.
“Activism is a way for useless people to feel important, even if the consequences of their activism are counterproductive for those they claim to be helping and damaging to the fabric of society as a whole.” - Dr Thomas Sowell
I think I poorly represented what I meant. I think it's too bad that there aren't more female and minority comic book characters with the same general public mass appeal as Superman or Batman or Spiderman. While within the comic industry there ARE a lot of those characters, outside of comic geeks you're average person probably doesn't know who they are.Leisher wrote:This is the truth.Oddly, instead of creating a solid female or minority hero and letting them stand or fail on their own, they seem to decide they have to take an established and popular character and change the person under the mask to the desired hero.
And they'll ride that until interest falls off and readership actually goes into decline. Then they bring back white dude and hail the return of who ever.
While they do try and make new characters now and then, like Blue Marvel (Marvel's black Superman) both companies tend to "reinvent" existing characters with new costumes, powers, skin colors, and genitalia. Both companies have started to get backlash from it too. People are sick of seeing variants on existing characters for the sake of diversity. It cheapens the characters.
A lot of the afore mentioned characters have the advantage of being around for over 50 years, where as many of the (well just call them all) minority characters haven't been around for that long or started out more as token characters. Let's face it, when comics finally got around to really focusing on creating stand alone black characters in the 70's most of them were the comic equivalent of a Blaxploitation flick.
I'm not thinking that there's anything to be done about it other than for the comic industry to keep at it without gimmicks such as these. Just saying it's a shame is all.
"... and then I was forced to walk the Trail of Tears." - Elizabeth Warren
Fair point.
However, it's not all "the white man's fault" that women and minority characters are underrepresented.
Sure, a lot of these characters came around during a time when it was a white dominated society. It is what it is.
It's now 2014 and a book featuring a black character doesn't sell. Whose fault is that? It's the black audience's fault because they simply aren't there or they aren't supporting the product.
Brian Michael Bendis' New Avengers was one of the best books going for a long time and featured Luke Cage as the team leader. It was an exceptional book, and a lot of fans got into Luke for the first time. (I've been a fan since he was Power Man of Power Man and Iron Fist.)
Bendis moved onto the X books and Marvel changed the lineup for New Avengers and put Luke in charge of Mighty Avengers. Mighty Avengers is almost an entirely black roster. It's being cancelled in a few months. I think it might have lasted a little more than a year?
I remember black Barbies being drastically discounted at a ToysRUs and people thinking it racist, but the reality is that they simply don't sell.
Movies featuring black actors and actresses don't perform as well at the box office.
Disney ran an advertising campaign for a long time featuring black families. Why? Because black people don't go there.
My point is that we're past a time when all characters created are white unless they're a caricature. Writers are white, black, Asian, men, women, etc. They create characters of each sex, any sexual preference, any religion, all skin colors, etc.
We can't sit back and claim racism anymore because Black Panther isn't on the level of Iron Man. Marvel has tried. Believe me. The dude has had a million solo titles, married Storm, been in the Avengers, is king of a nation that's never been conquered, is going to get his own movie, etc.
At some point, black people have to start supporting a character if they want that character to go mainstream. You can't expect other people to push a non-profitable character for you. That's racist.
And it's not just black people, they're just the example here. It's all races, religions, creeds, etc.
Some things simply aren't in a group culture. Is it really racist to exclude them if they don't give a shit about your product?
Does the NHL and/or NASCAR need to go out of it's way to get more black people despite the fact that black people really aren't interested in those sports?
I think things just need to progress naturally. For example, there weren't a lot of black people into golf until Tiger Woods came around...
However, it's not all "the white man's fault" that women and minority characters are underrepresented.
Sure, a lot of these characters came around during a time when it was a white dominated society. It is what it is.
It's now 2014 and a book featuring a black character doesn't sell. Whose fault is that? It's the black audience's fault because they simply aren't there or they aren't supporting the product.
Brian Michael Bendis' New Avengers was one of the best books going for a long time and featured Luke Cage as the team leader. It was an exceptional book, and a lot of fans got into Luke for the first time. (I've been a fan since he was Power Man of Power Man and Iron Fist.)
Bendis moved onto the X books and Marvel changed the lineup for New Avengers and put Luke in charge of Mighty Avengers. Mighty Avengers is almost an entirely black roster. It's being cancelled in a few months. I think it might have lasted a little more than a year?
I remember black Barbies being drastically discounted at a ToysRUs and people thinking it racist, but the reality is that they simply don't sell.
Movies featuring black actors and actresses don't perform as well at the box office.
Disney ran an advertising campaign for a long time featuring black families. Why? Because black people don't go there.
My point is that we're past a time when all characters created are white unless they're a caricature. Writers are white, black, Asian, men, women, etc. They create characters of each sex, any sexual preference, any religion, all skin colors, etc.
We can't sit back and claim racism anymore because Black Panther isn't on the level of Iron Man. Marvel has tried. Believe me. The dude has had a million solo titles, married Storm, been in the Avengers, is king of a nation that's never been conquered, is going to get his own movie, etc.
At some point, black people have to start supporting a character if they want that character to go mainstream. You can't expect other people to push a non-profitable character for you. That's racist.
And it's not just black people, they're just the example here. It's all races, religions, creeds, etc.
Some things simply aren't in a group culture. Is it really racist to exclude them if they don't give a shit about your product?
Does the NHL and/or NASCAR need to go out of it's way to get more black people despite the fact that black people really aren't interested in those sports?
I think things just need to progress naturally. For example, there weren't a lot of black people into golf until Tiger Woods came around...
“Activism is a way for useless people to feel important, even if the consequences of their activism are counterproductive for those they claim to be helping and damaging to the fabric of society as a whole.” - Dr Thomas Sowell
Heh... Luke Cage was one of those I was thinking about coming about like a Blaxploitation character. I'm glad they did something positive with his character. Did they ever get him out of that god awful 70's disco shirt with the huge collar?
Probably the most popular and well known mainstream black comic book character is Spawn, and he's been mutated to the point that color is not evident.
But I don't disagree with any of your points. I hope they keep swinging at it in the industry. Don't continue to lose money on titles that aren't selling, but continue to let the characters grow and focus on them.
I think the comic business is doing everything they can to be as inclusive as they can (just stay away from the gimmicks). Like I said, nothing to be done about it, but it's a shame that it is what it is.
Probably the most popular and well known mainstream black comic book character is Spawn, and he's been mutated to the point that color is not evident.
But I don't disagree with any of your points. I hope they keep swinging at it in the industry. Don't continue to lose money on titles that aren't selling, but continue to let the characters grow and focus on them.
I think the comic business is doing everything they can to be as inclusive as they can (just stay away from the gimmicks). Like I said, nothing to be done about it, but it's a shame that it is what it is.
"... and then I was forced to walk the Trail of Tears." - Elizabeth Warren
There are more Asians on the planet than anyone else, yet aside from Jubilee, Sunfire, and that new Team movie Marvel is developing with Pixar I can't think of any Asians off the top of my head.
Iron Fist's Asian, isn't he?
Diogenes of Sinope: "It is not that I am mad, it is only that my head is different from yours."
Arnold Judas Rimmer, BSC, SSC: "Better dead than smeg."
Arnold Judas Rimmer, BSC, SSC: "Better dead than smeg."
heh... Unless try retro'd the hell out of him, he used to be pretty much Chuck Norris without facial hair. Except even more blonde.Malcolm wrote:Iron Fist's Asian, isn't he?There are more Asians on the planet than anyone else, yet aside from Jubilee, Sunfire, and that new Team movie Marvel is developing with Pixar I can't think of any Asians off the top of my head.
"... and then I was forced to walk the Trail of Tears." - Elizabeth Warren
Yeah Iron Fist is Danny Rand. Blonde cracker and best friends with Luke Cage.
I'm a fucking retard when it comes to pop culture things. I just remember things. Stranger can attest that I've taken on entire parties of people in movie trivia games and won.
My comics knowledge is helped by:
1. A childhood spent reading Marvel comics.
2. Still having an interest enough to keep up with what's going on, although my collecting, at this point, is basically just some trades here and there.
3. Listening to two pop culture pop casts that will talk about comic news.
4. Reading Newsarama daily during lunch.
By the way, if you want good trades to read, here's the list:
Girls
The Boys
The Walking Dead
Y: The Last Man
Saga
Preacher
Old Man Logan
There are others, but I doubt anyone reading this wouldn't enjoy any of those books.
I cannot believe how much Leisher knows about this shit. I mean... damn.
I'm a fucking retard when it comes to pop culture things. I just remember things. Stranger can attest that I've taken on entire parties of people in movie trivia games and won.
My comics knowledge is helped by:
1. A childhood spent reading Marvel comics.
2. Still having an interest enough to keep up with what's going on, although my collecting, at this point, is basically just some trades here and there.
3. Listening to two pop culture pop casts that will talk about comic news.
4. Reading Newsarama daily during lunch.
By the way, if you want good trades to read, here's the list:
Girls
The Boys
The Walking Dead
Y: The Last Man
Saga
Preacher
Old Man Logan
There are others, but I doubt anyone reading this wouldn't enjoy any of those books.
“Activism is a way for useless people to feel important, even if the consequences of their activism are counterproductive for those they claim to be helping and damaging to the fabric of society as a whole.” - Dr Thomas Sowell
Stranger can attest that I've taken on entire parties of people in movie trivia games and won.
Easier than you think. Try taking on the best team of 3-4 from the same room.
Diogenes of Sinope: "It is not that I am mad, it is only that my head is different from yours."
Arnold Judas Rimmer, BSC, SSC: "Better dead than smeg."
Arnold Judas Rimmer, BSC, SSC: "Better dead than smeg."
Yeah Iron Fist is Danny Rand. Blonde cracker and best friends with Luke Cage.
Oh yeah. I keep forgetting he was trained by the Asians in the K'un-a-something-Shangri-La-L'um-ville place.
Diogenes of Sinope: "It is not that I am mad, it is only that my head is different from yours."
Arnold Judas Rimmer, BSC, SSC: "Better dead than smeg."
Arnold Judas Rimmer, BSC, SSC: "Better dead than smeg."
Because female Thor wasn't enough, here comes black Captain America.
Edit: I want to point out that like female Thor, there's already been a black Captain America, so these moves being "new" is complete horseshit.
I believe they'll be announcing transgender Hulk on Letterman tonight.
Also, here's your new Avengers lineup. Read the comments. It's going over about as well as a fart in church.
Antman, Dr. Strange, Scarlett Witch, and Winter Soldier I get. They're going to be high profile due to their expanding roles in the movies.
However, Marvel needs to just fucking stop with the Inhumans. Nobody gives a fuck about them. Never have, never will. They're uninteresting and you've treating them like D list characters forever. Just because you stupidly sold your X-Men movie rights, and now have to push these turds doesn't mean we are going to enjoy them.
Keep in mind that this all appears to be part of their "8 Months Later" story line that is culminating in...something...in May 2015. More and more I'm thinking the rumored reboot just might be happening.
Edited By Leisher on 1405608698
Edit: I want to point out that like female Thor, there's already been a black Captain America, so these moves being "new" is complete horseshit.
I believe they'll be announcing transgender Hulk on Letterman tonight.
Also, here's your new Avengers lineup. Read the comments. It's going over about as well as a fart in church.
Antman, Dr. Strange, Scarlett Witch, and Winter Soldier I get. They're going to be high profile due to their expanding roles in the movies.
However, Marvel needs to just fucking stop with the Inhumans. Nobody gives a fuck about them. Never have, never will. They're uninteresting and you've treating them like D list characters forever. Just because you stupidly sold your X-Men movie rights, and now have to push these turds doesn't mean we are going to enjoy them.
Keep in mind that this all appears to be part of their "8 Months Later" story line that is culminating in...something...in May 2015. More and more I'm thinking the rumored reboot just might be happening.
Edited By Leisher on 1405608698
“Activism is a way for useless people to feel important, even if the consequences of their activism are counterproductive for those they claim to be helping and damaging to the fabric of society as a whole.” - Dr Thomas Sowell
