I would consider this plunder of American treasure.
While I would disagree with your estimates, I much more strongly disagree with your sentiment. There is a huge difference between this and actual violent plundering. This is exactly the same sort of thinking that says making a finger gun in school is the same as taking a real gun to school.
EDIT: I originally said "taking a finger gun to school" but that's just ... weird. Like some kid got on the bus with his hand that way and hid it that way until he could put his hand in his locker and stick it under some books where no one could see it?
Edited By TPRJones on 1403621017
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Entering a country illegally with the sole purpose of taking someone elses money that you have no right to is.... fine? Sounds like theft to me, but what's your perspective?
"Be bold, and mighty forces will come to your aid."
Obama was able to boost that some in 2008, but I think he's pretty well cured most of those kids he suckered of trusting a politician again.
Someone else will sucker them again, simply because the opposing party will go to the four corners of the world to find a less viable candidate.
Diogenes of Sinope: "It is not that I am mad, it is only that my head is different from yours."
Arnold Judas Rimmer, BSC, SSC: "Better dead than smeg."
Of course it's not fine. But let's not call it pillaging when it is not. Barbarian hordes are serious shit, and intense raping and pillaging is something that literally leaves the ground soaked with the blood of your citizens and your cities burned down to ashes.
As to theft, sure. That I will accept, although given the amounts involved on an individual level I would consider it petty theft. Admittedly it is much bigger en masse and it can be a problem if it gets too large. But calling it "pillaging" is an insult to the millions throughout history slaughtered by actual pillaging hordes and is the conservative version of the absurdest sort of thinking we usually make fun of around here when liberals do it.
Edited By TPRJones on 1403621419
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GORDON wrote:Entering a country illegally with the sole purpose of taking someone elses money that you have no right to is.... fine? Sounds like theft to me, but what's your perspective?
That's not their sole purpose. Their sole purpose is to get the fuck out of the shit situation they're in by staying put.
Diogenes of Sinope: "It is not that I am mad, it is only that my head is different from yours."
Arnold Judas Rimmer, BSC, SSC: "Better dead than smeg."
Malcolm wrote:That's not their sole purpose. Their sole purpose is to get the fuck out of the shit situation they're in by staying put.
Also, this. So far all the illegals I've met have had stories centered around how they had to get away before the drug cartels killed their son or some other awful shit. None of them were looking ahead to the US as a place to get rich, they were looking behind at where they came from and running in fear.
But then all the ones I've known have been the hard-working sort of illegals, because I met them through work. Perhaps there's a whole other set of them I just haven't come into contact with yet.
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TPRJones wrote:Of course it's not fine. But let's not call it pillaging when it is not. Barbarian hordes are serious shit, and intense raping and pillaging is something that literally leaves the ground soaked with the blood of your citizens and your cities burned down to ashes.
As to theft, sure. That I will accept, although given the amounts involved on an individual level I would consider it petty theft. Admittedly it is much bigger en masse and it can be a problem if it gets too large. But calling it "pillaging" is an insult to the millions throughout history slaughtered by actual pillaging hordes and is the conservative version of the absurdest sort of thinking we usually make fun of around here when liberals do it.
Yeah, I see your point, but I don't think there is as great a divide in the two positions as you say. How many <s>thousands</s> hundreds (probably just hundreds) of illegals come in per day, every day? How much ill-gotten money is that? I would guess more than the total value of the entire roman empire, and counting. Maybe. At least as much as the total damage caused by the Visigoths (is that right) and the proper-barbarian hordes. I am sure the US government has never actually compiled any numbers as to how much welfare is scammed by illegal immigrants, because that would imply all manner of public policies are broken.
15 million illegals, if given amnesty, times... what is the average welfare payout? I'll call it $500 per person just because it is hard to find real numbers. So $7.5 billion per month going to people making so little money that they qualify for welfare, every year. $90billion a year... we're almost talking about real money.
I dunno.
Lots of "great migrations" happened in history that took decades or centuries, including the "barbarian invasions" of Europe and could only be recognized once enough time had passed. I bet there was more than one dude in 500AD who ever only saw one local city get sacked in his lifetime and didn't recognize it as a full-scale invasion, either.
But whatev. At least we have enough jobs for all of them and our own teenagers who are actually supposed to be here.
Edited By GORDON on 1403622243
"Be bold, and mighty forces will come to your aid."
I bet there was more than one dude in 500AD who ever only saw one local city get sacked in his lifetime and didn't recognize it as a full-scale invasion, either.
How in the fuck do you refer to this as an invasion? Immigration != war. This is not armed conflict. If anything, you have problems with your elected officials not doing anything. I also find it difficult to blame people entering this country illegally when they are leaving something worse. It's like Dwayne T. Robinson trying to make John McClane feel bad for all the broken glass he's caused.
At least we have enough jobs for all of them and our own teenagers who are actually supposed to be here.
Our own teens would rather be out YOLOing instead of doing real work.
Edited By Malcolm on 1403622501
Diogenes of Sinope: "It is not that I am mad, it is only that my head is different from yours."
Arnold Judas Rimmer, BSC, SSC: "Better dead than smeg."
I bet there was more than one dude in 500AD who ever only saw one local city get sacked in his lifetime and didn't recognize it as a full-scale invasion, either.
How in the fuck do you refer to this as an invasion?
How do you not?
"Be bold, and mighty forces will come to your aid."
Diogenes of Sinope: "It is not that I am mad, it is only that my head is different from yours."
Arnold Judas Rimmer, BSC, SSC: "Better dead than smeg."
How much ill-gotten money is that? I would guess more than the total value of the entire roman empire, and counting
Well, it's hard to make a direct comparison like that. There were no US dollars in use in Roman times so you can't just take the inflation rate. And no one uses the Roman denarius anymore so you can't extrapolate from that either. The only fair way to look at it would be as a percentage of GDP of the nation being stolen from, and I would say that the barbarian hordes that destroyed Rome took a much larger percentage of Rome's wealth from them, while the theoretical hispanic welfare families have taken almost nothing in comparison.
But sure, I guess I see your point. Although I would say that even if your estimates are anywhere close to reality, the problem here lies almost entirely in a broken welfare system and not the illegal immigrants.
At least we have enough jobs for all of them and our own teenagers who are actually supposed to be here.
Um, no. The jobs that I have seen them doing are quite literally jobs that no teenager would do. Well, maybe a teenager who's parents had died and they were trying to single-handedly support their four young siblings so the government won't come and put them in foster homes. Maybe those teenagers would do these jobs. But not real teenagers. And certainly not for the cheap wages being paid.
Hell, I wouldn't do those jobs at ANY price unless it was the only thing keeping me from living under a bridge.
I bet there was more than one dude in 500AD who ever only saw one local city get sacked in his lifetime and didn't recognize it as a full-scale invasion, either.
Almost certainly true. But one sacked city is still a whole world away from our current ZERO sacked cities.
"ATTENTION: Customers browsing porn must hold magazines with both hands at all times!"
At least we have enough jobs for all of them and our own teenagers who are actually supposed to be here.
Um, no. The jobs that I have seen them doing are quite literally jobs that no teenager would do. Well, maybe a teenager who's parents had died and they were trying to single-handedly support their four young siblings so the government won't come and put them in foster homes. Maybe those teenagers would do these jobs. But not real teenagers. And certainly not for the cheap wages being paid.
We should be seeing a resurgence of the old practice of teens working a farm for a season, or joining the forestry service, or the peace corps, or whatever, after high school/secondary schooling. Building character and padding the resume and making them more attractive to employers. These jobs used to be done by teens, but not any more. I am not actually sure why. NOW these are the jobs that immigrants do and people say "because no one else will do them," which I have never liked as an argument. What's the response... "If you say so?"
If that ended up being the best path for my kid at that point in his life, you bet your ass I will be nudging him in that direction. One thing that isn't going to happen is his getting out of school thousands in debt and then he lives with me until he is 25 whining that he can't find a job. If he travels with a group of migrants for a summer picking tomatoes and learning Spanish, you bet your ass that'll get his head out of his ass. If that becomes a problem with him.
"Be bold, and mighty forces will come to your aid."
Well then, they should've stayed their roundhead asses in England and let everyone continue to make their lives shitty rather than putting the onus on the Native Americans to keep them alive during the first incredibly harsh years in the first colonies. Those fucking thieving bastards.
Edited By Malcolm on 1403623310
Diogenes of Sinope: "It is not that I am mad, it is only that my head is different from yours."
Arnold Judas Rimmer, BSC, SSC: "Better dead than smeg."
I was kind of surprised you used the pilgrims as an example, when the natives absolutely considered the influx of whitey as an invasion. Lots of wars were fought trying to get whitey out, and almost succeeded, once.
I can't remember the name of the war. I want to say early 1700's, and the natives pushed the European settlers in new england back hundreds of miles to within a few miles of the ocean.
"Be bold, and mighty forces will come to your aid."
I'm not 100% sure I'd call the European settlement of the new world an invading horde. It's getting closer, but it's not quite as single-mindedly bloodthirsty as a pillaging horde.
But it's an interesting choice in that it raises other questions. Would the world now be a better place if the Europeans had never invaded the New World? If not, how do you know that the future Estados Unidos De América won't also be a big improvement to the world? If the only difference between the two is that the European invasion was us doing the invading and the Hispanic invasion is us being invaded and that makes all the difference in the world, that seems pretty shallow as moral argument. Theoretically. Although of course it makes perfect sense from a practical standpoint.
NOW these are the jobs that immigrants do and people say "because no one else will do them," which I have never liked as an argument.
I completely agree with you on this point. The world the way it is now is just like that, though. I quite literally cannot think of a single teenager I know who would do these jobs, but I know many illegals that will. When I say that I am not making an argument, I am reporting facts.
Personally I think that says a lot more about the teenagers than the immigrants.
EDIT: Well, and the jobs. These are some really shitty jobs.
Edited By TPRJones on 1403624676
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TPRJones wrote:I'm not 100% sure I'd call the European settlement of the new world an invading horde. It's getting closer, but it's not quite as single-mindedly bloodthirsty as a pillaging horde.
But it's an interesting choice in that it raises other questions. Would the world now be a better place if the Europeans had never invaded the New World? If not, how do you know that the future Estados Unidos De América won't also be a big improvement to the world? If the only difference between the two is that the European invasion was us doing the invading and the Hispanic invasion is us being invaded and that makes all the difference in the world, that seems pretty shallow as moral argument. Theoretically. Although of course it makes perfect sense from a practical standpoint.
The American natives were getting close to leaving the stone age before the first Spaniards landed in the 1400's, but smallpox brought that to an end. There was 90% native die-off in a short amount of time. This isn't really something that can be discussed.... they got wiped out before the actual conflicts even started. There isn't anyone to blame, it was just a stone age culture vs. European high technology. It would never have ended any other way unless somehow explorers didn't find the NA continent for another couple hundred years when the natives could have dealt with the smallpox.
I disagree with the US government breaking every treaty that happened afterwards, but that is a different discussion. There was even a line going through the Appalachians at one point that the President of the United States promised the natives that the europeans would never cross. Settlers crossing that line started all kinds of conflicts.
"Be bold, and mighty forces will come to your aid."
There isn't anyone to blame, it was just a stone age culture vs. European high technology.
I dispute that greatly. European "high technology" got its ass kicked for several years until the local inhabitants clued the colonists in on how shit worked in the New World as far as flora and fauna go.
Personally I think that says a lot more about the teenagers than the immigrants.
Indeed. Most kids know their parents are a safety net. Fuck raking leaves in that case. Some people are trying to short circuit that.
Edited By Malcolm on 1403632454
Diogenes of Sinope: "It is not that I am mad, it is only that my head is different from yours."
Arnold Judas Rimmer, BSC, SSC: "Better dead than smeg."
There isn't anyone to blame, it was just a stone age culture vs. European high technology.
I dispute that greatly. European "high technology" got its ass kicked for several years until the local inhabitants clued the colonists in on how shit worked in the New World as far as flora and fauna go.
Being a fish out of water doesn't mean they were not technologically superior. The europeans adapted a lot faster than the natives did, obviously.
Basically, the entire world of muskets and ocean going vessels fell on a culture that still didn't know how to make bronze. As far as I know. I asked my history prof one day if the natives were smelting metal before the spaniards showed up, and she "didn't think so." I never cared enough to research it. If they were, it wasn't yet enough to matter.
"Be bold, and mighty forces will come to your aid."
Bows and arrows still beat rifles for rate of fire until repeaters got invented in the 1800s.
Diogenes of Sinope: "It is not that I am mad, it is only that my head is different from yours."
Arnold Judas Rimmer, BSC, SSC: "Better dead than smeg."