Mexicans != barbarians.GORDON wrote:HA.Malcolm wrote:The theories behind the "fall of Rome" are many and varied, as well as the date which half "fell." I haven't seen any barbarians trying to cross over rivers just yet.GORDON wrote:Then you must admit that if nothing has changed, then all empires crumble, as well. Is there no parallel between the way the American government treats its citizens today, and the way Rome went off the deep end?
Texas, Rio Grande.
Insane mom gasps, clutches pearls
Diogenes of Sinope: "It is not that I am mad, it is only that my head is different from yours."
Arnold Judas Rimmer, BSC, SSC: "Better dead than smeg."
Arnold Judas Rimmer, BSC, SSC: "Better dead than smeg."
And yes, something good did finally arrive after Rome shrank out of Europe, with the Renaissance. How long was that period in between?
That was worthwhile only because the Muslims kept around a shitload of ancient knowledge of antiquity and it finally made its way across Europe after that peaceful cultural mingling called the Crusades coupled with the advent of the printing press.
Edited By Malcolm on 1403559856
Diogenes of Sinope: "It is not that I am mad, it is only that my head is different from yours."
Arnold Judas Rimmer, BSC, SSC: "Better dead than smeg."
Arnold Judas Rimmer, BSC, SSC: "Better dead than smeg."
NOTHING good can come of this.
And again I disagree. A world of good can come from this. You can't start something new until you end something old. Do you want us to keep limping on as we have been forever?
As to the length of the middle ages, while nothing is new under the sun I will point out that the rate of change has ramped up a lot since then. Things will get bad. They may get bad for a few years. But as long as no one starts throwing around nukes all willy-nilly, I'd be surprised if it wasn't all good and settled within a decade.
Shouldn't lose more than, say, 20% of the population of the most dense urban areas, with less than 1% of the rural population dead. A cheap price for a good future, IMO.
"ATTENTION: Customers browsing porn must hold magazines with both hands at all times!"
No. Not even fucking close. When we start having regular pitched battles with thousands of combatants at the Texas-Mexico border, I'll retract my statement. Once we start granting them citizenship only on promise of service in the Border Patrol, or only promise to grant them second-rate citizenship, I'll retract my statement.GORDON wrote:Aren't they?
Diogenes of Sinope: "It is not that I am mad, it is only that my head is different from yours."
Arnold Judas Rimmer, BSC, SSC: "Better dead than smeg."
Arnold Judas Rimmer, BSC, SSC: "Better dead than smeg."
Yeah, there haven't been nearly enough bloody battlefields for that analogy to hold water.
There's a big difference between a war of words and ideas over illegal immigration and clubbing a few thousand people to death. That's the same sort of thinking that ends up with some mother clutching her pearls about Playmobil sets.
Edited By TPRJones on 1403553284
There's a big difference between a war of words and ideas over illegal immigration and clubbing a few thousand people to death. That's the same sort of thinking that ends up with some mother clutching her pearls about Playmobil sets.
Edited By TPRJones on 1403553284
"ATTENTION: Customers browsing porn must hold magazines with both hands at all times!"
I'm not sure how not fighting them (very hard) at the border means they aren't barbarians that are, well, illegally storming the border. The reason we aren't stopping them is because they (or their families already here) vote democrat and there is dirty money to be made.Malcolm wrote:No. Not even fucking close. When we start having regular pitched battles with thousands of combatants at the Texas-Mexico border, I'll retract my statement. Once we start granting them citizenship only on promise of service in the Border Patrol, or only promise to grant them second-rate citizenship, I'll retract my statement.GORDON wrote:Aren't they?
Doesn't mean we aren't getting invaded, and it doesn't mean it isn't changing the landscape, politically or socially.
"Be bold, and mighty forces will come to your aid."
I'm not sure how not fighting them (very hard) at the border means they aren't barbarians that are, well, illegally storming the border. The reason we aren't stopping them is because they (or their families already here) vote democrat and there is dirty money to be made.
When the barbarians pushed against the rivers and borders, the Romans sent in the regular armed forces to deal with them and got beat back. When the US Army starts losing armed fights to the illegal immigrants, that'd be similar.
Edited By Malcolm on 1403554224
Diogenes of Sinope: "It is not that I am mad, it is only that my head is different from yours."
Arnold Judas Rimmer, BSC, SSC: "Better dead than smeg."
Arnold Judas Rimmer, BSC, SSC: "Better dead than smeg."
More to the point, the barbarians weren't trying to get jobs. They were there to plunder, rape and pillage. When the majority of illegal immigrants start killing American men, raping American women, and burning down the cities, then I'll consider there is a bit of parallel there.
"ATTENTION: Customers browsing porn must hold magazines with both hands at all times!"
I like how you felt the need to qualify "the majority of" them aren't raping and pillaging.
What is the tipping point where enough raping and murdering becomes a barbarian invasion that also happens to be moving other members of their civilization in at the same time?
What is the tipping point where enough raping and murdering becomes a barbarian invasion that also happens to be moving other members of their civilization in at the same time?
"Be bold, and mighty forces will come to your aid."
I didn't say any of them are raping an pillaging. I just didn't want you to pull up a couple of examples and call that a massive barbarian horde.
I'd say over 50% of them dedicated to such activities would qualify the whole as a barbarian horde. Less than that and perhaps you could consider it a small horde masked by large numbers of non-horde "invaders". Less than 1% and you've just got typical evil humans being typically evil.
Edited By TPRJones on 1403555642
I'd say over 50% of them dedicated to such activities would qualify the whole as a barbarian horde. Less than that and perhaps you could consider it a small horde masked by large numbers of non-horde "invaders". Less than 1% and you've just got typical evil humans being typically evil.
Edited By TPRJones on 1403555642
"ATTENTION: Customers browsing porn must hold magazines with both hands at all times!"
I like how you felt the need to qualify "the majority of" them aren't raping and pillaging.
There is always a small minority of assholes in any demographic.
Diogenes of Sinope: "It is not that I am mad, it is only that my head is different from yours."
Arnold Judas Rimmer, BSC, SSC: "Better dead than smeg."
Arnold Judas Rimmer, BSC, SSC: "Better dead than smeg."
My favourite experiment that shows humanity's predisposition to turn on humanity. The fact that even one person pressed a button because some other motherfucker vocalized loudly enough is damning. A buddy of mine had the following argument for why the species will kill itself (as opposed to having a natural disaster take us out), "Given enough time, technology increases. Given more technology, it's easier for a random psychopath to kill people. It is also generally easier to tear things down than built them up. It's only a matter of time."
Diogenes of Sinope: "It is not that I am mad, it is only that my head is different from yours."
Arnold Judas Rimmer, BSC, SSC: "Better dead than smeg."
Arnold Judas Rimmer, BSC, SSC: "Better dead than smeg."
I don't think Milgram applies to this scenario. It has to more to do with trust in authority than it does with whether people will help each other or not. And the early 60s were a VERY different time when it comes to how the average American thought of Authority embodied in either a politician or a scientist in a lab coat.
"ATTENTION: Customers browsing porn must hold magazines with both hands at all times!"
TPRJones wrote:I don't think Milgram applies to this scenario. It has to more to do with trust in authority than it does with whether people will help each other or not. And the early 60s were a VERY different time when it comes to how the average American thought of Authority embodied in either a politician or a scientist in a lab coat.
You think there's ... less trust in authority nowadays? No way. I see more people willing to give over more control of more aspects of their lives than I recall back in the day. The average American is still gullible as fuck and getting worse, which is how I explain who's in DC.
Edited By Malcolm on 1403563738
Diogenes of Sinope: "It is not that I am mad, it is only that my head is different from yours."
Arnold Judas Rimmer, BSC, SSC: "Better dead than smeg."
Arnold Judas Rimmer, BSC, SSC: "Better dead than smeg."
No way. Here is a point where we completely disagree. I see a lot more people thinking for themselves now than ever before. There are still plenty of gullible old people around who trust authority, but everyone under the age of 50 I know wouldn't trust any politician further than they could throw them.
Doesn't mean they are very good at thinking for themselves, mind you. But it's a start.
Doesn't mean they are very good at thinking for themselves, mind you. But it's a start.
"ATTENTION: Customers browsing porn must hold magazines with both hands at all times!"
No? Looks to me like voter turnout is awful low across the board under age 50, which would tend to confirm my point. Especially when you consider that Milgram was around the highest turnout we've seen since proper measurements started. Obama was able to boost that some in 2008, but I think he's pretty well cured most of those kids he suckered of trusting a politician again.
Edited By TPRJones on 1403567986
Edited By TPRJones on 1403567986
"ATTENTION: Customers browsing porn must hold magazines with both hands at all times!"
I would say that well over half of them crossing the river are actually trying to get on welfare benefits, create an anchor baby, and/or trying to get their kids here before the next round of amnesty, even more than they are trying to get jobs. I would consider this plunder of American treasure.TPRJones wrote:More to the point, the barbarians weren't trying to get jobs. They were there to plunder, rape and pillage.
Did you say a 50% threshold would make them a barbarian horde?
"Be bold, and mighty forces will come to your aid."