Our understanding of armor is incorrect. 25 armor does not block 25 points of incoming damage. Armor creates 'effective health'.
Effective health is how much damage you have to take before you die. Each 1 point of armor you have is a 1% increase in the amount of damage you take before dying. So, if you have 1000 max health and 60 points of armor, it will take 1600 points of damage to kill you.
Another way to look at it is in damage reduction. If you have 60 points of armor, then incoming damage is reduced to 62.5% percent, or, a 37.5% reduction in damage.
Having high armor increases the effectiveness of healing too. If you heal for 100 points, the enemy has to do 160 points of damage to undo that heal.
So, it's not a point for point damage reduction.
So, when you are lowering their armor through ArPen, you are reducing the amount your damage is reduced! If your enemy has 25 armor, your 100 point shot is only doing 80 points of damage. So, you can take 20 points in AD. This makes your 120 point shot do 96 points of damage. Or, you can take 20 points of ArPen and now your 100 point shot does 95.2.
At this point, we have to decide is ArPen cheaper than AD? ArPen works on buildings too, because they have armor. As well as minions/jungle.
With ArPen, you can reduce their armor below zero thus increasing the amount of damage you do. So, if you reduce their armor to -25%, you are doing an additional 20% in damage. So, your 100 point AD shot is doing 120 points of damage. Or, your are reducing their effective health from 1000 to 750.
I still don't know which is better. ArPen or AD. But, at least now I understand the math and can make an educated decision.
And, it could be a good strategy for us all to buy some armor, take heal and become a more tanky team.
LoL Armor - We are wrong. . . .
We're learning this just in time for Riot to address the bruiser meta...
So, would it be a good strategy to have our AD and AP Carries build straight glass cannons and stay to the back of fight, while the other three build a mix of armor and damage?
"Minor spoiler: Blade of the Ruined King and Wicked Hatchet are actually Season 3 items.
During development, we actually had a very powerful version of Madred's called Tankbusta that completely destroyed the Bruiser meta (yes, it can be done!). However, we found that there was a lot of crossover between Takbusta and the S3 items, so we scrapped Tankbusta and brought over the S3 items instead.
BotRK is definitely weaker than Tankbusta, but we'll separate them out again and give TT its own replacement if necessary."
So, would it be a good strategy to have our AD and AP Carries build straight glass cannons and stay to the back of fight, while the other three build a mix of armor and damage?
“Activism is a way for useless people to feel important, even if the consequences of their activism are counterproductive for those they claim to be helping and damaging to the fabric of society as a whole.” - Dr Thomas Sowell
http://www.surrenderat20.net/
Don't get to used to all of that though, The end of season two patch is tonight evidently. And if you read some of what the RED's have been posting, many items are changing and the way the ArPen and AD are being implemented is also being changed.
There are a few good articles from the last week in here about changes in items, jungle changes and other ways they are changing the game. You will have to read some of the older posts to read them all. But regardless, be ready for lots of new developments really soon.
I just noticed that the patch is for Europe tonight not NA. But expect it very soon.
Edited By Stranger on 1352744865
Don't get to used to all of that though, The end of season two patch is tonight evidently. And if you read some of what the RED's have been posting, many items are changing and the way the ArPen and AD are being implemented is also being changed.
There are a few good articles from the last week in here about changes in items, jungle changes and other ways they are changing the game. You will have to read some of the older posts to read them all. But regardless, be ready for lots of new developments really soon.
I just noticed that the patch is for Europe tonight not NA. But expect it very soon.
Edited By Stranger on 1352744865
WORLD CHAMPIONS!!
ok, i stand corrected. Flat ArPen and %ArPen are being changed. here is what i found:
1. Flat Armor Penetration and % Armor Penetration values are generally being lowered, but now Flat Penetration is calculated AFTER % Penetration
For example: Let’s say I have 50% Armor Penetration and 20 Flat Armor Penetration versus a target with 120 Armor.
Currently, on Live, I would ignore 20 of his armor via Flat Penetration (100) and then 50% of the remainder, leaving him with 50 Armor.
After this change, I would ignore 50% of his armor (60) and then 20 of the remainder, leaving him with 40 armor.
In this manner, we can make sure that penetration values can be cost-effective for both late game and early game because now you have an option to synergize the two statistics together if you need to pierce large amounts of armor.
1. Flat Armor Penetration and % Armor Penetration values are generally being lowered, but now Flat Penetration is calculated AFTER % Penetration
For example: Let’s say I have 50% Armor Penetration and 20 Flat Armor Penetration versus a target with 120 Armor.
Currently, on Live, I would ignore 20 of his armor via Flat Penetration (100) and then 50% of the remainder, leaving him with 50 Armor.
After this change, I would ignore 50% of his armor (60) and then 20 of the remainder, leaving him with 40 armor.
In this manner, we can make sure that penetration values can be cost-effective for both late game and early game because now you have an option to synergize the two statistics together if you need to pierce large amounts of armor.
WORLD CHAMPIONS!!
"Hey everybody take defensive runes and masteries."Cakedaddy wrote:And, it could be a good strategy for us all to buy some armor, take heal and become a more tanky team.
"Fuck you GORDON, you are stupid and that is a stupid thing because attack damage and also shut up."
"Be bold, and mighty forces will come to your aid."
Well it looks like armor is gonna be less usefull than it was before. they are making items that are gonna be taking out the tanky bruisers, and the fact that they are changing flat ArPen and %ArPen make armor that much more useless.
Just because you figured out how its works doesn't mean that it better than it was before. And I'm someone who always builds armor in his masteries and through items. I think its kinda sad that its going that way.
Edited By Stranger on 1352751856
Just because you figured out how its works doesn't mean that it better than it was before. And I'm someone who always builds armor in his masteries and through items. I think its kinda sad that its going that way.
Edited By Stranger on 1352751856
WORLD CHAMPIONS!!
GORDON wrote:Cakedaddy wrote:And, it could be a good strategy for us all to buy some armor, take heal and become a more tanky team.
"Hey everybody take defensive runes and masteries."
"Fuck you GORDON, you are stupid and that is a stupid thing because attack damage and also shut up."
You're going to break a hip trying to pat yourself on the back.
However, two things:
1. I never disagreed with you when you said it.
2. I stand by my assertion that it doesn't work for all members of a team.
Tanks/Bruisers = Yes
AD/AP Carry = Not so much. Give up too much offensive power, and it's like buying armor for the enemy...
And as Stranger points out, this is all moot now anyway since Riot is changing everything for S3.
Edited By Leisher on 1352752563
“Activism is a way for useless people to feel important, even if the consequences of their activism are counterproductive for those they claim to be helping and damaging to the fabric of society as a whole.” - Dr Thomas Sowell
But you don't play AP or AD carry.. obviously Singed and Nunu greatly benefit from armor.GORDON wrote:Just pointing out that I was pointing that shit out... what... a year ago? a lot, and usually when I have a really good game with one of my characters it is because I have my defensive masteries in spite of the "the carry should CARRY" opinion.
WORLD CHAMPIONS!!
It goes hand in hand with when I was pioneering the phrase, "We are feeding too much" and I didn't mean me.
The response was, "Well what do you suggest we do about that, GORDON?"
And then I would say, "Put more defense in your runes and masteries. You may get fewer lasts hits but you will feed less, and feeding is what always kills us."
And then the reply is, "Yeah well that is stupid and shut up and you are dumb."
The response was, "Well what do you suggest we do about that, GORDON?"
And then I would say, "Put more defense in your runes and masteries. You may get fewer lasts hits but you will feed less, and feeding is what always kills us."
And then the reply is, "Yeah well that is stupid and shut up and you are dumb."
"Be bold, and mighty forces will come to your aid."
Just pointing out that I was pointing that shit out... what... a year ago?
I know what you're doing.
usually when I have a really good game with one of my characters it is because I have my defensive masteries in spite of the "the carry should CARRY" opinion.
Not sure what you mean here? Are you saying when you played the AD Carry? In that case I'd disagree.
I think it's about style.
When I used the standard mastery set for AD Carries, I felt sluggish, and didn't feel it was worth it late game. However, when I use my AS runes, I feel more comfortable.
Plus, the meta for a while was "Critplank" for you Gangplank players. Guys were setting their runes up to give GP massive damage bonuses with their critical hits. So they were dominating with him, but without defensive runes.
However, if you're talking about Singed...different story, and I totally agree.
The last Singed we played against the other night had a perfect build. He had just enough tankiness to require multiple people to take him down, but still did enough damage to make them go heal after fighting him.
“Activism is a way for useless people to feel important, even if the consequences of their activism are counterproductive for those they claim to be helping and damaging to the fabric of society as a whole.” - Dr Thomas Sowell
What they said. . . .
Carry should still not have defensive stuff.
Tank/bruiser should.
Last hits are the most important thing to the carry. The most. The one thing in the game they should be doing is scoring last hits. Something that would cause them to have fewer last hits should be avoided.
I have changed my Ashe runes to include more ad and less attack speed. My old rune page was 100% attack speed runes. Gave me a %38 increase. Which was awesome. My current gives 13% attack speed and 15 ad. I also start with doran's blade. This gives me a wee bit more sustain with the life steal, but I almost never miss a last hit now. Assuming my 'support' isn't trying to take last hits as well. This rune set gives me the highest dps through level 5. With all the last hits I'm taking, I have more money to spend on items. Items that give more ArPen! Early game, AD is more important than ArPen to ensure more last hits.
But even with all the changes coming, etc, I'm glad I understand armor now. After almost 2 years of playing, I'm just now figuring this out. Embarrassing!
Carry should still not have defensive stuff.
Tank/bruiser should.
Last hits are the most important thing to the carry. The most. The one thing in the game they should be doing is scoring last hits. Something that would cause them to have fewer last hits should be avoided.
I have changed my Ashe runes to include more ad and less attack speed. My old rune page was 100% attack speed runes. Gave me a %38 increase. Which was awesome. My current gives 13% attack speed and 15 ad. I also start with doran's blade. This gives me a wee bit more sustain with the life steal, but I almost never miss a last hit now. Assuming my 'support' isn't trying to take last hits as well. This rune set gives me the highest dps through level 5. With all the last hits I'm taking, I have more money to spend on items. Items that give more ArPen! Early game, AD is more important than ArPen to ensure more last hits.
But even with all the changes coming, etc, I'm glad I understand armor now. After almost 2 years of playing, I'm just now figuring this out. Embarrassing!
I agree with Cake.
20 points of armor doesn't do me much good when I'm out of position or nobody is there supporting me.
As Trynd I can hit people for over 1000 points of damage pretty easily, but I'm sure that 20 points will save them!
This
Edited By Leisher on 1352840552
20 points of armor doesn't do me much good when I'm out of position or nobody is there supporting me.
As Trynd I can hit people for over 1000 points of damage pretty easily, but I'm sure that 20 points will save them!
Instead of putting on a helmet cause we are retarded, lets stopping being retarded!
This
Edited By Leisher on 1352840552
“Activism is a way for useless people to feel important, even if the consequences of their activism are counterproductive for those they claim to be helping and damaging to the fabric of society as a whole.” - Dr Thomas Sowell
Keep in mind that 20 points in armor isn't 20 points off the 1000 points of damage you are doing. It's actually 167.
Over all, I'm not arguing that 'no one' should take armor runes/masteries. I'm arguing that 'everyone' should not take it. Many champs would use it. But our carries should not have it. Singed is an ideal candidate for it. Ez is not.
Over all, I'm not arguing that 'no one' should take armor runes/masteries. I'm arguing that 'everyone' should not take it. Many champs would use it. But our carries should not have it. Singed is an ideal candidate for it. Ez is not.