Schoolkids vs. gunman

[GORDON]

Last night our school district had an open meeting with parents to let us know what the emergency plan was in the effect of a gunman coming in and opening fire.

The local police chief attended, and opened by letting us know that every other school district in the county had a "crouch and hide" plan, with these little "if/then" cards that the teachers and administrators were supposed to read and follow as things progressed. For example "Gunman is sighted on school property. A) If he has entered the building, do this, and proceed to step X... B) if he is firing at the building, do this, proceed to step Y." It culminated with, "If shots are fired outside the classroom, have students get under their desks, have them cover their eyes and ears with their hands, and tell them to remain calm."

Then they showed video and the actual 911 audio (the kid who called 911 and hid got killed early on, but his phone stayed on) of the Columbine shooting, and illustrated how every kid who didn't run, who tried to hide, got shot. It was very graphic. Ended with the 2 shooters killing themselves when the cops showed up... 17 minutes after the first shot was fired.

My school district's plan is a little different. It is called "ALICE."

http://www.schoolsecurity.org/trends/students_fight_gunmen.html

Basically, if shots are fired, barricade the door to the classroom, then RUN. Get out the windows or doors, and, strangely enough, they are supposed to haul ass 4 miles down the road to the nearest village (population 6k, or so). It is fairly rural out here, lots of farmland, but there are still about 50 houses within sight of the school and along the road to the village, and every one has been visited by the police and told the plan... if they suddenly see hundreds of kids marching past their house, help them. The high school kids have been told to help the little kids, if they need it (our entire school district now shares a single campus).

The police will create a 2 mile perimeter around the school, no cars get in or out. One hopes they will be in place before the kids get to the 2-mile mark away from the school.

But here is the part I found interesting: if the kids are unable to flee or they get cornered by a gunman, they are supposed to arm themselves with whatever they find, and attack. They were told to use coffee cups, scissors, shoes, whatever they could use to attack the gunman, hopefully enough to distract him or deflect his aim, and haul ass. They are literally told to fight dirty. Aim for the eyes and face. Go for the balls. I was impressed by that part, and I waited for the arguments to begin from the audience, but their were none.

At the end, before Q&A, the cop talked again. He said yes, all the schools have locked doors now, but none of that is going to stop someone with a gun who wants to get in, not even for 5 seconds. He said the only thing to do is to lock the schools down tighter than a prison (which I said a long time ago), which they aren't prepared to do. He mocked the other "cover your eyes and ears" plan, basically said it sucked.

Then in Q&A, someone went there.... he brought up how every shooting that has happened lately has been in a "gun free zone." I was waiting for arguments... there weren't any. The cop agreed. He said he personally is in the schools every day morning, lunch, and COB, as often as he could... he or one of his guys. The kids are used to their presence, and where initially students were wary of seeing cops around all the time, now they are all comfortable and give "high fives" and all that.

Personally, I would like to see a closed door in every school (and they would never use that door... THAT door could be barricaded and booby trapped, so they use the door no one knows about) with a couple ex Marines sitting with their rifles next to them playing cards and watching movies all day, ready and waiting.

And know what? Knowing they were in there, in every school, will keep anyone from even trying. These people aren't looking for a fight, they are looking for easy target. harden the target.

So... what plan does your school district have?



Edited By GORDON on 1357836758

[Malcolm]

But here is the part I found interesting: if the kids are unable to flee or they get cornered by a gunman, they are supposed to arm themselves with whatever they find, and attack. They were told to use coffee cups, scissors, shoes, whatever they could use to attack the gunman, hopefully enough to distract him or deflect his aim, and haul ass.

These would be the same schools that suspend children for bringing aspirin and nail clippers?

Knowing they were in there, in every school, will keep anyone from even trying. These people aren't looking for a fight, they are looking for easy target. harden the target.

They're looking to cause death and mayhem. Dumb-ass kid that shot up the most recent school looks like he was pissed at his mother, who worked there. He would've driven a truck through the fucking door to do it. There was little difference between his state of mind and that of a suicide bomber. Once someone gets that insane, their brain believes they've got nothing left to lose.

Armed guards? Fine. Might work until some psycho ups the ante. What do you plan to do when the next dude drives a truck full of explosive materials through the front door? You want vehicle checkpoints when you go to drop off your kids? How about the a new gov't agency, the ESA (Education Safety Administration), to place armed guards in every school in the country, just in case, in addition to metal detector and backscatter X-ray machines?



Edited By Malcolm on 1357838266

[GORDON]

Armed guards? Fine. Might work until some psycho ups the ante. What do you plan to do when the next dude drives a truck full of explosive materials through the front door?

It is easier for a guy to invade a school with a couple shotguns than it is to build a truckload of fertilizer bomb. Shitloads easier, since shotgun sales are not tracked, and fertilizer/bomb making materials are. AND.... the random nutjob in your argument isn't going to be able to keep his shit together long enough to successfully fill a truck with explosives.

Armed guards are what stops the easy invaders. If the nutjobs think schools are ready for a higher form of war, you adapt to that, then. There's already a lot of hindrance in place for the truck bombers, and none for the single shooters. Deal with the problem in front of you, not the one that is full of "if."

[GORDON]

I'm tempted to write to the school principal and ask why all teachers don't carry tasers. Even mace will keep a shooter's eyes watering long enough to evacuate a school.

[Malcolm]

I'm tempted to write to the school principal and ask why all teachers don't carry tasers.

Unions, training, inherent pussiness. Could be any number of reasons.

AND.... the random nutjob in your argument isn't going to be able to keep his shit together long enough to successfully fill a truck with explosives

Timothy McVeigh pulled it off. Even the Columbine kids had bombs made, granted they didn't go off properly, but "nutjob" doesn't necessarily mean "sucks at chemistry."

Deal with the problem in front of you...

How about identifying these problem folk before shit gets to the point where they feel the need to go kamikaze? I also submit that any protection given to them on school property will instantly get extended to extracurricular activities the first time someone shoots up a soccer practice. Fuck any kind of state security getting a foothold. I saw what they did to the airports. Fuck them.

[GORDON]

Identify psychos ahead of time? That sounds more terrifying and invasive then any other government nightmare you just mentioned.

If a person snapped, it would take them about an hour to go to walmart, buy a few rifles and a few hundred rounds of ammo, and go to the local school. Identify that ahead of time.

I don't know why you keep saying armed guards needs to be a national initiative. I said in the OP that cops roam my local school, and the feds don't have anything to do with it. Things can get TAKEN OVER by the feds, but that can and will happen with anything, anyway, as soon as the right bribes are paid by people with the most to gain by having an 'in" with the guy who will be creating the ESA, or whatever you said.

It will happen anyway.

Until then, I want my kid guarded from the random nutjob that snapped 45 minutes ago. I have no moral qualms about making sure people can't get into a school who don't belong in the school.

[GORDON]

3 days ago, a crazed gunman walked into a school and pointed a gun at the principal. The armed guard pulled her own gun and put it in his face, and he ran. The gunman was the only one killed. I just learned about this, right now, and then it was part of a "why does the media hide these things?" article.

http://www.tricities.com/news....13.html

Unless you are going to put bars on the windows and literally tighten up schools harder than a prison, the only thing that is going to stop a gunman is another gunman. You will have to have guards at any side doors anyway to keep kids from letting in outsiders (their buddies, whatever), so you might as well arm them. I don't think people are going to look at schools with an armed guard as a bigger challenge, I think they will find a different place to go kill mom.

So, again, what emergency plan is your school district using?

edit - looking deeper into the story, it was just updated Monday, but happened 2 years ago. Belay my snark about "why the media hides it." The rest is still valid. Takes a gunman to stop a gunman, until we can get star trek immobilization shields up and running and installed in schools.



Edited By GORDON on 1357846593

[Malcolm]

Identify psychos ahead of time? That sounds more terrifying and invasive then any other government nightmare you just mentioned.

There weren't umpteen billion warnings signs that Adam Lanza was more than a tad deranged?

I don't think people are going to look at schools with an armed guard as a bigger challenge, I think they will find a different place to go kill mom.

Yeah, you're right. They could do it in the middle of a supermarket, where people shop with their kids. Better put those guards there, too. And at every family-style restaurant. And every other place where we figure the concentration of children is high enough to warrant on-site, armed chaperones. What's the magic ratio of children to adults where that kicks in? In addition, I propose we make the kids all keep kevlar vests in their lockers. We'll also reinforce doors with bullet resistant materials since that shit apparently doesn't last five seconds.

I don't know why you keep saying armed guards needs to be a national initiative.

Doesn't every public school suckle at the district level teet, which goes all the way up to the Department of Egde-a-mukashun? You think all the sweet, free gov't cash is going to come in when the district says, "No, that's alright, we decline your solution and have our own." These are fuckers who wouldn't let airports, things that typically have an in-house police force, do their own security.

As for the psycho referenced in your article...

No one knows why Cowan pointed his Honda in the direction of the Blountville, Tenn., high school, where his brother is a janitor. He is described – in court records and interviews – as a peculiar man with a history of erratic, sometimes criminal, behavior and a deep suspicion of the government.

I'm sure there were absolutely no warning signs that this dude may be a danger to others.



Edited By Malcolm on 1357852301

[GORDON]

In that case, let's lock up everybody who feels sad sometimes, everyone with a hobby they are passionate about, and menstruating women. None of those are rational.

You keep saying that you disagree with the armed guard idea, but all you are countering with is... lock people up according to some standard of sanity? Is that your only solution?

Also, schools aren't grocery stores nor restaurants, where it is likely there would be an off duty cop or a former combat vet someone with concealed carry... or just an adult male. Schools have a high kid:adult ratio, and are full of little targets too small to fight back. If you think it is the same thing, then I am done discussing it with you because we will never see eye to eye, and also since I think you are insane you need to be locked up now before you go rampage. Sorry! I decided you are crazy and now you need to be locked up. Your rules.



Edited By GORDON on 1357852714

[TPRJones]

Identify psychos ahead of time? That sounds more terrifying and invasive then any other government nightmare you just mentioned.

There weren't umpteen billion warnings signs that Adam Lanza was more than a tad deranged?

Yes, but only his psychotic mother was around him enough to know this.

Should the government monitor all mother/son relationships, just in case?

Doesn't every public school suckle at the district level teet, which goes all the way up to the Department of Egde-a-mukashun?

Generally, that's the problem not the answer. Those schools and districts that take more local responsibility and do less suckling are usually much better in quality in every way. Perhaps less governmental teeting all around is the answer.

[WSGrundy]

I don't think it has to be an either or situation. There needs to be people in the school who have access to a couple gun lockers in the school who can help stand against the next nut who walks in.

But we can also do a better job of finding these people before they go crazy. When the Connecticut kid did his shooting the media came to his neighborhood and started interviewing people and they incorrectly said his older brother was the shooter. Every single person told the news reporters "No it wasn't him, if anyone did that it was his younger brother.". Everyone knew who the psychopathic nut job was but nothing was really done. I don't think we have to go minority report on people or start giving state sponsored health care to everyone but if a few different doctors talk to someone and there conclusion is "This kid is really fucked up!" I don't have an issues with everyone throwing in $5 a year to try and drug up the psychos.

People bring up the UK or France that they have strict gun laws and this doesn't happen as much and then others bring up Switzerland where every shoots guns and target practice is more popular than soccer and this shit doesn't happen as much. There are places that have fewer guns per person and places that have more guns per person than the US and they don't have this. They don't have fewer crazy people per person then the US so they are doing something more effective what it is exactly I don't know.

I agree with Malcolm(I can't believe I am saying this, and should probably be one of the test to see if you are a psycho) that people are going to ramp things up. I said to a friend who brought up gun control that timothy mcveigh and the 9/11 highjackers didn't fire a shot but still hurt a lot of people so armed people at school aren't going to stop it completely but it isn't going to hurt it either. I guess one problem at a time.

[Malcolm]

Yes, but only his psychotic mother was around him enough to know this.

Dude, even the chick that cut his hair said he wasn't right in the head. He saw more than one psych professional in his life. I don't think their evaluations were glowing.

Perhaps less governmental teeting all around is the answer.

If anyone has the balls to turn down their cash, more power to them. But everybody wants more money, so almost no one says no.

There needs to be people in the school who have access to a couple gun lockers in the school who can help stand against the next nut who walks in.

A digitally locked container attached to some electronic triggers and a monitoring system is infinitely preferable to a persistent armed presence. Drop multiple ones in easily accessible areas that a group of folk already onsite can grab and use. If you've got anyone willing to get a C&C permit, they get to use it after some basic (but complete) background checking and psychological evaluation (not just lame preplanned verbal/written tests, get a couple actors and trick the shit out of them).

[GORDON]

Everything you said makes sense, I would just add that mcveigh and the 9/11 hijackers were generally sane and had an agenda, and your typical school shooter is not sane, and unbalanced. Mcveigh didn't suicide, even though doing so would have improved his chances over a bomb timer, and the 911 hijackers thought they were going to their paradise and virgins. School shooters just want to die, and for some reason take lots of kids with them.

I will whole heartedly endorse locking more crazies up, as long as I am the one deciding who is insane.

[Malcolm]

...I would just add that mcveigh and the 9/11 hijackers were generally sane and had an agenda, and your typical school shooter is not sane, and unbalanced.

I disagree. Both those parties were nuttier than elephant shit in a peanut factory. You can be insane and mentally unbalanced, and not be a ranting raving loon.

Dude who blew up building = insane. I don't like bureaucracy either, but I don't make truck-bombs to express my displeasure nor do I believe it's a constructive way to combat the problem.

Dudes who flew planes into buildings = insane. They furthermore because they believe they get virgins and paradise in the next life, and bloodying the Great Satan of the West is probably a nice bonus.

[GORDON]

Mcveigh saw himself as a patriot, and if he had succeeded in his goal of overturning the government then he would have become so.

The 9/11 hijackers... I don't know that they actually failed their mission, and hell, maybe they are in their virgin paradise right now. They absolutely won the battle that day, and their cause is winning the war as far as eroding freedom in this country. Either way, they weren't really punished for their actions and had instantaneous deaths smug and happy until the lights went out.

School shooters... I haven't seen one yet that wasn't in it for the suicide, aside from that one in Norway... who, according to him, was trying to do something about the muslim problem... but admittedly, I haven't followed that one much. But still, he seemed to have an agenda and a plan.

[Malcolm]

Mcveigh saw himself as a patriot, and if he had succeeded in his goal of overturning the government then he would have become so.

I see myself as Zeus, god of the sky, and if I succeed in creating and hurling lightning bolts, I will become so.

EDIT: Still insane. The pricks that shot up Columbine had a plan, too. They were also batshit insane.



Edited By Malcolm on 1357870934

[GORDON]

You absolutely would become a god, but that changes nothing about the fact mcveigh did what the founding founders did, he just failed. He wasn't any more crazy than they were, he just sucked at it.