Ignorance

Post by **thibodeaux** » Wed Sep 14, 2011 2:48 pm

Listen: YOU DO NOT KNOW THAT.

You are ASSUMING that people who oppose gay marriage are ignorant of the Bible because they haven't drawn the same conclusions from it that you have. That is fallacious.

Post by **thibodeaux** » Wed Sep 14, 2011 3:24 pm

Why don't you tell these guys they're ignorant about the Bible.

Post by **TheCatt** » Wed Sep 14, 2011 3:53 pm

Post by **TPRJones** » Wed Sep 14, 2011 4:45 pm

It's not about the Bible. It has never been about the Bible. If it were really about the Bible then the Defense of Marriage Act would have stated that "Marriage is between one man and one or more women, which will serve him without question." I have looked and looked and looked, and I have been unable to find anything in the Bible about marriage being between one man and one woman, or about the women having any sort of say in anything important.

No, it's about what people think God wants, regardless of what is in the Bible. Does that make them ignorant? Many of them, yes; lots of them really have no understanding of what the Bible actually says. The rest that really do understand are hypocrites who choose to play willfully ignorant either because they think they know better than God, or because they are using the situation to gain political power.

My take on it: Fuck the Bible. It's completely irrelevant to this question due to the First Amendment. There is no right in this country for one religion to force their views on everyone. Legislating based solely on your religious beliefs is the worst sort of anti-American treason there is as it strikes at the very core of what America is all about.

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Post by **thibodeaux** » Wed Sep 14, 2011 5:15 pm

TPRJones wrote:No, it's about what people think God wants, regardless of what is in the Bible. Does that make them ignorant? Many of them, yes; lots of them really have no understanding of what the Bible actually says. The rest that really do understand are hypocrites who choose to play willfully ignorant either because they think they know better than God, or because they are using the situation to gain political power.

It sounds like you're contradicting yourself. First you say it's about "what people think God wants." Then you that the only choices are:
* Ignorant
* Hypocrites who think they know better than God
* Hypocrites who are trying to gain political power

What about the people who sincerely believe that God is against gay marriage? Are those the ignorant ones? Are you seriously saying that people whose beliefs about what God wants is different from yours are ignorant? Or, again, are you saying that since their beliefs contradict what YOU say the Bible says, they're ignorant?

Post by **TPRJones** » Wed Sep 14, 2011 5:31 pm

What about the people who sincerely believe that God is against gay marriage? Are those the ignorant ones? Are you seriously saying that people whose beliefs about what God wants is different from yours are ignorant? Or, again, are you saying that since their beliefs contradict what YOU say the Bible says, they're ignorant?

Ignorant or willfully playing ignorant, yes. Or more accurately, picking and choosing the parts they like and ignoring others. Please tell me where in the Bible that God wants marriage to be only one man and one woman and no other options.

You can find places where it says homosexuality is bad. But I have been unable to find anything specifically about one man and one woman, which is the oft-repeated mantra. If they really based their argument on the Bible, they'd be pushing of legalizing polygamy, because that's very biblical. Or if you think Matthew 19:4-6 implies one man and one woman, then the question becomes how can they not be pushing just as hard to make marriage permanent and divorce illegal?

However, I'd also like to reiterate that it's really irrelevant when you get down to it. It is fully within the rights of any Christian to practice their version of their religion and not get gay-married. It is not within their rights to force others to practice their version of their religion.

EDIT: I will make one exception to the "ignorant" label for Catholics. Under Catholicism the Pope makes proclamations that God promised to uphold. So then if the Pope says it it's so. So for Catholics it's not about ignorance, although I would argue against the legitimacy of the Doctrine of Papal Infallibility. But that's a different conversation.

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Post by **TheCatt** » Wed Sep 14, 2011 5:46 pm

Ignorant.

Post by **thibodeaux** » Wed Sep 14, 2011 6:03 pm

TPRJones wrote:However, I'd also like to reiterate that it's really irrelevant when you get down to it. It is fully within the rights of any Christian to practice their version of their religion and not get gay-married. It is not within their rights to force others to practice their version of their religion.

I agree, but what part of that is "ignorant?" There's a lot of people trying to get the government to overstep its bounds---hell, SUCEEDING---and I think it's dangerous to attribute that to ignorance.

You can't tell me that the hundreds of LAWYERS who have passed those laws as legislators, and upheld them as judges are ALL IGNORANT. Ok, fine, you can TELL me that, but I don't believe. Some of them, sure, and some of them were evil, but some were just misguided well-meaning people.

Post by **TPRJones** » Wed Sep 14, 2011 6:26 pm

Ignorant of what they can get away with with the law? No. Ignorant of what the Bible says about it, or willfully playing ignorant by using the Bible to achieve their ends while ignoring the parts that don't help them? Yes.

I don't consider the word ignorant to be an insult. It's a correctable situation. They can study the Bible themselves to learn what it says instead of listening to the evil ones twisting it to their own ends. And I think it's fair to apply the word ignorant to "misguided well-meaning people" up until they do that.

Post by **thibodeaux** » Wed Sep 14, 2011 8:46 pm

I swear to God: stop it, both of you. You are wrong if you assume that everybody who objects to gay marriage on religious grounds is ignorant of what the Bible says. End of discussion. You may think they are WRONG, but you cannot assume they are ignorant because they disagree with you.

Post by **TheCatt** » Wed Sep 14, 2011 8:49 pm

thibodeaux wrote:I swear to God: stop it, both of you. You are wrong if you assume that everybody who objects to gay marriage on religious grounds is ignorant of what the Bible says. End of discussion. You may think they are WRONG, but you cannot assume they are ignorant because they disagree with you.

They're both ignorant and wrong, but it has nothing to do with disagreeing with me.

You'll never listen to what I'm saying, so I know it doesn't matter, but they are ignorant.

I've never said "everybody" but I'm definitely going 80/90% rule here.

Post by **thibodeaux** » Wed Sep 14, 2011 8:51 pm

TheCatt wrote:You'll never listen to what I'm saying, so I know it doesn't matter, but they are ignorant.

What exactly is your evidence for this? What information given to an anti-gay-marriage person would correct this ignorance? Lay it on me.

Post by **thibodeaux** » Wed Sep 14, 2011 8:52 pm

TPRJones wrote:I don't consider the word ignorant to be an insult. It's a correctable situation.

It most definitely is an insult, and you know it. You're basically saying that all RIGHT-THINKING PEOPLE believe a certain thing.

It's conceited, condescending, and insufferable. I expect it from self-righteous asshole liberals; I don't expect it from you people.

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Post by **thibodeaux** » Wed Sep 14, 2011 9:08 pm

I shouldn't really complain so much, because in the case of anti-gay-marriage, it's not like the opponents are all Redneck Crackers. Nope; it's those ignorant blacks and Hispanics, too.

No enemies to the left, right?

Post by **TPRJones** » Thu Sep 15, 2011 12:03 am

thibodeaux wrote:You're basically saying that all RIGHT-THINKING PEOPLE believe a certain thing.

Not so. I'm saying the source material from which they claim to get their reasoning does not support them in their stance. At least not in the way they claim it does. Therefor they either are not familiar with the source material (ignorant of what it says) or know better but choose to ignore that fact (willfully feigning ignorance).

They're welcome to say gay marriage is bad, but if they're going to give a religious basis for it it should be one that shows some understanding of their own religious text.

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Post by **thibodeaux** » Thu Sep 15, 2011 8:23 am

TPRJones wrote:Not so. I'm saying the source material from which they claim to get their reasoning does not support them in their stance. At least not in the way they claim it does. Therefor they either are not familiar with the source material (ignorant of what it says) or know better but choose to ignore that fact (willfully feigning ignorance).

Or not; just because you say it's so doesn't prove it. There's also the choices of: 1. their interpretation is in good faith (no pun intended) but incorrect, or 2. YOUR interpretation is incorrect. But of course, YOU'RE not ignorant, so you couldn't be wrong, could you?

Post by **TheCatt** » Thu Sep 15, 2011 10:05 am

Clint Eastwood is Libertarian.

Post by **TPRJones** » Thu Sep 15, 2011 1:36 pm

thibodeaux wrote:Or not; just because you say it's so doesn't prove it. There's also the choices of: 1. their interpretation is in good faith (no pun intended) but incorrect, or 2. YOUR interpretation is incorrect. But of course, YOU'RE not ignorant, so you couldn't be wrong, could you?

If you are going to sling about such accusations, why don't you have the courtesy I have shown of citing specific Bible passages to back up your point?

If someone "interpreted" the Bible to have been written entirely by cats and telling of the Mewsiah who will appear in a puff of fur and rid the world of all dog-kind, and they seemed serious about it, I would label them as ignorant of the actual contents of the Bible. This isn't everything goes here. There are actual words in the Bible with actual meanings, and some "interpretations" can be labeled as ignorant when they show a clear lack of understanding of what is in the book.

EDIT: People are welcome to believe whatever they want. But when it comes to Bible references, there are some things that are correct and some things that are wrong.

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Post by **thibodeaux** » Thu Sep 15, 2011 3:58 pm

TPRJones wrote:If you are going to sling about such accusations, why don't you have the courtesy I have shown of citing specific Bible passages to back up your point?

It's not MY point. I'm just telling you, don't be an arrogant asshole like the Lefties. There are other possible states on the other side besides "evil" and "stupid." And as far as I'm concerned, you have no business telling people they don't understand their own religion, unless it's also your religion. Like I said, go tell the Pope he's ignorant (oh right, you graciously gave him an exception. Nice of you).

Saying, "you're ignorant" is NOT an argument. It's a dismissal.

Post by **TPRJones** » Thu Sep 15, 2011 4:41 pm

Like I said, go tell the Pope he's ignorant (oh right, you graciously gave him an exception. Nice of you).

No, I do not except the Pope. I excepted Catholics because by the tenants of their religion if the Pope says it then it is God's law, and the Pope did say it. However, the Pope himself - along with the entire upper levels of the catholic Church hierarchy - is a whole other issue and I except him from nothing. He's a bastard, as are most of those in the Vatican, whether they mean well or not. It's just that I won't hold their sins against the rest of rank-and-file Catholicism.

Saying, "you're ignorant" is NOT an argument. It's a dismissal.

I guess we'll just have to disagree here. I know there's many things in this world of which I'm ignorant and if someone were to point out that I was ignorant about the topic being discussed I wouldn't be insulted, I would either acknowledge that that is something I haven't studied properly or instead demonstrate my knowledge of the topic. I guess if you are saying that someone is ignorant about ALL topics then that could be considered a dismissive insult, but I don't recall anyone here doing that.

And as far as I'm concerned, you have no business telling people they don't understand their own religion, unless it's also your religion.

For the record I've never told people they don't understand their own religion nor implied I would tell someone that. If you go back and read my posts, this is only about Biblical references. Which aren't magically changed when someone changes their religious stance. The Bible says what it says, not what people want it to say. If they don't like it they should probably go make their own Bible; you know, like the Mormon's did.