When does human life begin?

Post by **TheCatt** » Sun May 22, 2011 2:40 pm

In no way framing this in terms of legal protection, abortion, etc. Just wondering when people think life itself begins.

Malcolm · Post by **Malcolm** » Sun May 22, 2011 10:30 pm

I'm curious as to how "life" is defined here. For bacteria or other lower forms of life, it's a bit easier. Sentience complicates things infinitely.

Post by **TPRJones** » Mon May 23, 2011 6:09 am

Typically - depending on the beliefs of the individual - it either means insertion of the soul or the beginning of conscious self-awareness. The former being very likely nonexistent results in arbitrary answers. The latter is probably different for everyone depending on development, but most likely is sometime in the first year after birth.

I'm pretty sure there are two points where it is not, that being either contraception or birth. The first is way too soon to support any sort of consciousness and if we are talking souls there are so many miscarriages and failed implantations that you figure God (if he exists) would plan a better time to implant a soul to avoid having over half of them wasted. And birth doesn't seem to have any direct impact on the behavior or awareness of the child, but is just a change in environment - a big deal to the parents but the kid barely seems to notice once the shock to the system of the lungs starting to function wears off.

Edited By TPRJones on 1306145716

Post by **TheCatt** » Mon May 23, 2011 8:34 am

TPRJones wrote:I'm pretty sure there are two points where it is not, that being either contraception or birth.

I think that's the whole point of contraception.

The first is way too soon to support any sort of consciousness and if we are talking souls there are so many miscarriages and failed implantations that you figure God (if he exists) would plan a better time to implant a soul to avoid having over half of them wasted.

I think it starts at conception. That's the point at which the being has all of the necessary DNA to grow into a human being. True, it often goes awry, but at that moment, the ability for the cell to grow into another offspring is there.

Post by **TPRJones** » Mon May 23, 2011 8:48 am

Well, sure, if you're talking unique DNA combinations, then it is indeed conception when life begins. And while I'd agree that that's technically correct in itself, I wouldn't consider that life to be human life yet. For quite awhile it's just a parasitic bump. And then it's a squirmy hungry helpless animal. Until it starts to become self-aware I wouldn't consider it to be fully human.

I guess the DNA combination has some potential to it, sure, but at that point no more than a bunch of sperm and some eggs do.

Post by **TheCatt** » Mon May 23, 2011 9:12 am

No, it has much more potential than a bunch of sperm and some eggs do. In natural circumstances, sperm have a what, 1 in 100 million chance of getting to the egg and fertilizing? Eggs and sperms cannot become a viable lifeform without each other. A zygote can become one, assuming it is nurtured properly.

Post by **TPRJones** » Mon May 23, 2011 9:41 am

That's a bit of an arbitrary line. The majority of zygotes never implant or miscarry, so it's not that much more viable than the handfuls of sperm and egg.

There's not a clear dividing line there where you can say "this is a viable lifeform and that is not". It's a smooth curve all the way. You can say that "this is a new combination of DNA and that is not", but I for one don't consider a unique DNA combination to necessarily be all that important.

Alhazad · Post by **Alhazad** » Mon May 23, 2011 10:04 am

If unique DNA were all that mattered, the last identical twins out of the gate would be pitched in the bin.

Malcolm · Post by **Malcolm** » Mon May 23, 2011 2:55 pm

I'm considering "life" to begin when you can do something that can't be replicated by a machine. Until you express some type of creativity/individuality/originality while being self-aware, your "life" is rather bland, dull, and damn near indistinguishable from a hybrid pseudorandom-deterministic automaton. In other words, I suppose my criteria involves a lifeform being able to pass a Turing test.

EDIT : I'll also plant myself solidly in the "not conception and not birth, but later" camp.

Edited By Malcolm on 1306177002