Welcome to Thunderdome

The DOJ wants info on anti-Trump people.

Uh, why? Aren't people allowed to have dissenting views? Shouldn't this be THE top story in this country? Why is this just a blurb?

Remember when the Obama Administration had the IRS auditing right leaning entities? How did we not do more about this other than some dog and pony show in front of Congress where the people testifying basically told Congress to go fuck itself?

Google and GoDaddy refuse to host Nazi site.

This is probably more about pressure from the public, because without people screaming about it, you know Google wouldn't have bothered to see who they were hosting or even care. However, this "reject hate in every form" either has blinders on or is hypocritical. How can you claim to "reject hate in every form", yet continue to wage this public war against everyone who disagrees with you politically or socially?

That is hatred.

As I stated elsewhere, Hillary Clinton's "Resistance" movement against the current president is hate based. Elizabeth Warren telling supporters to ignore the right and middle and move even farther left is hate speech.

Why is one form of hatred ok, but not the other?

Why is it fine for Kaep and others to take a knee during the national anthem, but not ok for owners to not want to sign him/them? Aren't they allowed to have an opinion and express it? And that's before you take into account the surveys that proved a large percentage of people who tuned out the NFL last year did so because of those protests meaning the owners are also making a smart business decision.

Texas A&M to cancel a white nationalism rally.

What really frightens me is we're forcing people underground. You're not "ending hate" by taking away their public forums. You're simply proving to them that they're right, "people are out to get them". You're telling them to protect themselves they need to act.

That doesn't end well for anyone.

White nationalists being outed and losing jobs.

You should see how many people are in favor of this action. My FB page blew up with folks re-tweeting this stuff.

They have really, really short memories...

Again, why is it ok to out white nationalists or gun owners (remember when some city paper in New York did that?), but not Google employees who helped silence someone for having a differing opinion?

Hate is hate. It doesn't matter if it's pointed left or right. You don't eliminate hate by making it be quiet. All that does is shove it into dark corners and helps create things like Nazis and Al Qaeda.

You really want to do something to change minds? Go find some of these white nationalists and take them to lunch individually or in small groups and discuss things. Have a diverse sit down with them devoid of yelling and name calling. Actually listen to the person's concerns and look through their prism to see why they would think what they think.

You don't cure ignorance by telling it to shut up, you cure it through education.

Sorry, I wanted to vent this morning. Gordon's statement from the other day about this all ending only in violence is right, and it's sad. I don't want either of these sides to win that fight. They're both batshit insane and full of hate.

1 - In the absence of some kinda of extraordinary crime/issues, I cannot see what that DoJ request is doing.

2 - I'm fine with Google/GoDaddy not hosting neo-nazi websites, some lines have to be drawn.

Leisher wrote: Hate is hate

If you cannot see the difference between Neo-Nazis, white supremacists and those opposed to them... I cannot help you.

I think people should make it clear that the white supremeacy/Nazi stuff is NOT OK. Yes, we should suppress them. Letting it be out there means it's OK at some level, and it's not. Hell, I'm open to shooting people showing Nazi flags. Nazis killed millions of people, if a swastika isn't inflammatory, what is it?

I kind of like that one side is being more open about not liking freedom. They have always hated the second amendment, now they are declaring war on the first.

I hate liars. I am glad they are dropping their subterfuge.

TheCatt wrote: 1 - In the absence of some kinda of extraordinary crime/issues, I cannot see what that DoJ request is doing.

Thankfully, it's starting to get more headlines, but still, WTF?

TheCatt wrote: 2 - I'm fine with Google/GoDaddy not hosting neo-nazi websites, some lines have to be drawn.

Yes, they do, but who draws them, why, and who draws the next set is what is concerning.

I don't think you'll find anyone sane disagreeing that child porn sites need to be banned. However, there are people out there who think all porn sites need to be banned. There are people who think all right leaning political websites are hate sites because anyone not a democrat is a racist. Yeah, it's the slippery slope bullshit, but once you ban something you've opened the door to banning everything.
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TheCatt wrote: If you cannot see the difference between Neo-Nazis, white supremacists and those opposed to them... I cannot help you.

I never mentioned those opposed to the Nazis. I'm opposed to the Nazis and mentioned that. So help yourself.

My concern is how we're completely ignoring all other forms of hate. That was just the instant results of googling "I hate white people"...

TheCatt wrote: I think people should make it clear that the white supremeacy/Nazi stuff is NOT OK.

ALL supremacy bullshit, not just white.

TheCatt wrote: Yes, we should suppress them.

I'd rather know where my enemies are and address the problem head on.

TheCatt wrote: Hell, I'm open to shooting people showing Nazi flags.

There are people who think we should do the same if they voted for Trump, are in the Tea Party, etc. That's not hyperbole or bluster either. They legit think they should die. Too bad they're not full of illogical hate that we should address.

TheCatt wrote:Nazis killed millions of people, if a swastika isn't inflammatory, what is it?

It's ok, we're taking it back!

Seriously though, so did everybody. Other people just weren't at good at branding.

Listen, Nazis are bad, mmmk? I was thinking today about how much gamers have to thank them for because we've killed trillions or more of them without remorse.

My argument simply sums up as:
-Any censorship concerns me.
-I don't enjoy how the current climate in our country has been and continues to be "right=racist" and how there are some serious hate groups on the left that nobody bats an eye about. (Remember how black panthers stood outside a polling center with a fucking club intimidating people and nobody gave a shit?)
-Fuck Nazis, but also fuck all groups whose central theme is hate.

Leisher wrote: I don't think you'll find anyone sane disagreeing that child porn sites need to be banned. However, there are people out there who think all porn sites need to be banned. There are people who think all right leaning political websites are hate sites because anyone not a democrat is a racist. Yeah, it's the slippery slope bullshit, but once you ban something you've opened the door to banning everything.

Eh. This has been true forever. I'm going to count on society to be 'right' more often than not. And, quite frankly, to be as isolated from their bs as possible if the time comes.

Leisher wrote: ALL supremacy bullshit, not just white.

Sure. But I don't see the other supremacy stuff.

Leisher wrote: I'd rather know where my enemies are and address the problem head on.

I'd rather just go ahead and kill them.

Leisher wrote: There are people who think we should do the same if they voted for Trump, are in the Tea Party, etc.

See the first point. Those people exist, but are a minority. A vocal minority at best.

Leisher wrote: Any censorship concerns me.

Government censorship bothers me more.

Leisher wrote: I don't enjoy how the current climate in our country has been and continues to be "right=racist"

It certainly didn't help that these racist branded THEMSELVES as alt-right.

Leisher wrote: However, this "reject hate in every form" either has blinders on or is hypocritical. How can you claim to "reject hate in every form", yet continue to wage this public war against everyone who disagrees with you politically or socially?

Did the Jedi get to you? Political disagreement is pretty much how this country formed.

Leisher wrote: Aren't people allowed to have dissenting views?

Not according to Drumpf. At least if you believe anything he says about any judge or member of Congress that decides to shoot down his policies. Are you shocked he extends that view to anyone in general that doesn't like him? It's kind of why no one trusts him or his "voting fraud review."

But seriously, not if they want to hold those views and live in this country. We ban certain shit. Sometimes certain important shit like, "Divine law does not supersede state law." The government is pretty limited in what they can do. Places like Google and GoDaddy aren't.

Leisher wrote:Texas A&M to cancel a white nationalism rally.

Good.

What really frightens me is we're forcing people underground. You're not "ending hate" by taking away their public forums. You're simply proving to them that they're right, "people are out to get them". You're telling them to protect themselves they need to act.

They're free to rent out a conference room at a Holiday Inn or buy a warehouse in some shit-ass abandoned part of town where they can have their white power circle jerks.

Leisher wrote: You don't cure ignorance by telling it to shut up, you cure it through education.

Education has to be accepted willingly. Douchebags don't reform unless they want to. I'm not showing a hell of a lot of sympathy to those who don't. Which is why I'm totally ok with this:

Leisher wrote: White nationalists being outed and losing jobs.

Good. I fucking hope the door hits them in the ass on the way out and they're denied every conceivable severance benefit. I hope they do the same shit if there's a sharia rally somewhere in the country.

Leisher wrote: You don't eliminate hate by making it be quiet. All that does is shove it into dark corners and helps create things like Nazis and Al Qaeda.

Seriously, did you become a Jedi hippie? The Nazis got created as a direct result of the rest of Europe extorting every last dollar from Germany. That wasn't silencing people, that was robbery, abuse, and petty vendettas. Al Qaeda wouldn't be around today if it weren't for the US deciding to play them off the Russians and then proceeding to hang around and fuck with every thing in the Middle East before, during, and since the Cold War, especially the first Gulf War (Osama was pissed we came over to help). He was doubly pissed when the Saudis, our royal asshole, fundie-loving BFFs, decided to exile him. That's not silence either, those are the random-ass side effects of political power plays. If they wanted him quiet, they'd have killed him.

Leisher wrote: There are people who think we should do the same if they voted for Trump, are in the Tea Party, etc. That's not hyperbole or bluster either. They legit think they should die. Too bad they're not full of illogical hate that we should address.

Even I wouldn't go that far. I'd certainly support a four-year voting ban for anyone who voted for either major party in the last prez election. I'm just curious what happens when the insanity is removed from the equation one time.

TheCatt wrote:

If you think that's Antifa, I can't help you.

History repeats. We're back to the red shirts and the brown shirts.

yeah, that little tweet was either incredibly ignorant, or incredibly dishonest.

Vince wrote:
If you think that's Antifa, I can't help you.

History repeats. We're back to the red shirts and the brown shirts.

I know little about Antifa, other than they like to dress up in black and play pretend riot.

Antifa are peaceful in the same way Republicans are.nazis.

Layman: What is "Antifa"?
Antifa: It short for "antifascist". You know, like Nazis. We like to punch fascists in the face.
Layman: Oh! I hate those guys too. I'm all for punching Nazis.
*Antifa punches conservative standing next to them in the face*
*Layman and Antifa look at each other awkwardly*
Antifa: He was a Nazi.
Layman: Oh... okay. Yeah, I mean if you punched him, then that makes sense. I guess.
Antifa: I know, right?

Using violence or the threat of violence to attempt to silence your political enemies is wrong. That's what they do, and they've used the above tactic in order to get people that aren't paying a lot of attention to be at least neutral on the idea of using violence against a group that may be fascists. Once they get there, they just label everyone they disagree with as fascists.

To Leisher's question, yeah... I think we're in trouble. The DoJ story would be troubling as it is written, but I'm not sure it would be as troubling if we know the whole story. Are they really asking for the IP info on 1.3 million users, or is it an open subpoena on users that are plotting violence on their web site and is open to include any of their users that might be doing so, and that's where they're pulling the 1.3 million number from? So the headline is troubling, but not convinced that it isn't more nuanced than is being reported.

As far as firing Nazis and Klansmen, I'm okay with that if they're being fired for participating in the march. If I owned a store and the guy I hired behind the counter to be the face of my business showed up on the national news carrying one of those white nationalist shields, his locker would be cleared before he got back in town. Same as if he was marching with BLM and showed up on the news.

Everything is awful.

Vince wrote: As far as firing Nazis and Klansmen, I'm okay with that if they're being fired for participating in the march. If I owned a store and the guy I hired behind the counter to be the face of my business showed up on the national news carrying one of those white nationalist shields, his locker would be cleared before he got back in town. Same as if he was marching with BLM and showed up on the news.

Do you really think that being a Nazi or Klansman is the same as BLM?

Started writing this yesterday before leaving the office, so this is just to Catt's response to me WAY back in the thread...

(Also Catt, you missed the joke I put in my last post.)

TheCatt wrote: I'm going to count on society to be 'right' more often than not.

The problem is when they're not. It's easy to attack Nazis. They're evil morons. The problem is the next group of people out to eliminate others through violence probably isn't going to use the same moniker nor will they have the same targets.

TheCatt wrote: Sure. But I don't see the other supremacy stuff.

Well, the political supremacy you do, you just are probably not thinking of it in the same way for this topic. However, taking the extreme left as an example: You've got a large group of people who immediately condemn another group of people as subhuman and beneath them (That's not hyperbole.). They won't socialize with them, won't hire them, go out of their way to insult them, make their lives hell, etc. They say things like how great it would be if they'd all go away or die. (Just using this as an example, NOT saying this sort of bullshit doesn't exist on the other side.) When your leaders, the MSM, and morons from the other side paint your opposition in this light and as being the greatest threat to peace and their existence, how large a step do you think one needs to take to turn that into violence?

PETA has sponsored acts of domestic terrorism. The Black Panthers aren't exactly about peace and equality nor do they have a bloodless history. Go to any prison and everyone is separated by race, each thinking they're better than the other. Black people aren't exactly a favorite in the Asian community and perception of work ethic is a driving factor there. Dodgers and Giants fans, literally, beat each other into a fucking coma over the most boring sport in history. And I could go on forever...

These Nazi twats are simply familiar and stupid enough to show their face in public. IMHO, that makes them a minor threat. (And honestly, the majority of them have no people of color anywhere in their lives. If they did, they'd probably realize quickly that they're just like them.) The real racists folks should be worried about are the ones that don't expose themselves.

Racism isn't just walking around calling people a derogatory name. Things that stuck with me said by some of the black people that have been in my life:

"I'm not worried about the guy who yells 'nigger' at me. I'm worried about the people who act like my friend, and then call me 'nigger' behind my back."

"The real racists are the people who think I need help to get to their level. They think I'm inferior and need all the help I can get."

Anyway, just because the folks aren't dumb enough to wear matching shirts and announce their public gatherings doesn't mean other forms of supremacy aren't out there festering.

TheCatt wrote: I'd rather just go ahead and kill them.

Eh, I think I'd educate before execute. Most of these people are ignorant, not evil.

What makes a moron drive his car into a group of people? If it was evil, he'd have a history of evil acts. It's ignorance. He's had his head filled with propaganda and was driven, mentally, into a corner and he reacted. Some people will hit that moment before others, but we all have that corner in our brains that we lash out from.

TheCatt wrote: Those people exist, but are a minority. A vocal minority at best.

"These people" are a minority is correct. The ones willing to out themselves.

TheCatt wrote: Government censorship bothers me more.

This is people asking for censorship. You think the government won't notice that? Won't see where the line stands and think how they can take advantage of it?

TheCatt wrote: It certainly didn't help that these racist branded THEMSELVES as alt-right.

Apparently, this guy coined the phrase. (You'll love that guy's school history.)

And that doesn't help, but it's also complete bullshit to label everyone on the right as racist just because of this group. And yet, that happens. Same tactic was used on the Tea Party, which I think Gordon or Vince pointed out recently here or elsewhere.

I'm not defending these assholes, but I don't believe hate beats hate. I believe in education over suppression.

Plus, it's getting very annoying watching the same broad brush being used to paint anyone "not left", while people on the left demand nobody use a broad brush to define people. The lack of logic and hypocrisy drive me insane.

What is antifa? - And that's from a not-even-remotely-conservative site.

Here's a BBC article on them.

Yeah, that tweet is bullshit and the supremacy in action Catt doesn't see. Written by someone on the left, it paints the two left wing movements as peaceful and just, paints all right leaning people into the Nazi camp, and then mocks centrists. Point being, if you're not left, you're wrong. I'm sure this person jerked off to Elizabeth Warren's recent hate rally.

TheCatt wrote: Do you really think that being a Nazi or Klansman is the same as BLM?

No, but it's not as different as you probably think. Cops, Firemen, EMTs have been getting ambushed and murdered by people with ties (not financial, just beliefs) to BLM.

"But you can't paint a whole group based on extremists!!!" But that's what you're doing with the Republicans and the alt-right... (Sorry, I was having a conversation in my head with a left wing person.)

BLM proves my point that other groups incite hate and violence whether intended or not. (And I almost started rambling about BLM here, but that's way off topic.)

And with that, I'm out of this thread until tomorrow. A little work, lunch, a little more work with a meeting, and then golf calls.

I know we're all sane individuals who abhor this hate, we're just discussing the levels various groups display and what to do about them.

What is the best way to eliminate ignorance and hatred without creating a bigger, and potentially violent, problem?

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Response to Malcolm's post below. Sorry for the delay, but I didn't want you to think I was ignoring you.

Malcolm wrote: Political disagreement is pretty much how this country formed.

If someone's yard turned brown due to a drought, and you found a single blade of green grass, you don't get to describe the yard as "lush". Disagreement is different from hoping for or trying to make happen the eradication of those against you.

Malcolm wrote: Not according to Drumpf. At least if you believe anything he says about any judge or member of Congress that decides to shoot down his policies. Are you shocked he extends that view to anyone in general that doesn't like him? It's kind of why no one trusts him or his "voting fraud review."

Your personal jihad really makes it hard to listen to your opinions on him. The constant name calling, ripping his every move, even finding flaws when he does something right, wishing for bad things to happen to him and his cronies, etc. It reminds me of the actions/tactics of others...

Malcolm wrote: But seriously, not if they want to hold those views and live in this country. We ban certain shit. Sometimes certain important shit like, "Divine law does not supersede state law." The government is pretty limited in what they can do. Places like Google and GoDaddy aren't.

Yeah, that's the discussion.

Malcolm wrote: They're free to rent out a conference room at a Holiday Inn or buy a warehouse in some shit-ass abandoned part of town where they can have their white power circle jerks.

Well, you say that, but the discussion here is about suppression of something versus education.

This is not a "pro" or "anti" discussion for these asshats, but a discussion about the best course of action on dealing with them and others like them (and the level to which they're like them).

Malcolm wrote: Education has to be accepted willingly. Douchebags don't reform unless they want to.

You have proven that... (You can't softball them in like that.)

Malcolm wrote: I fucking hope the door hits them in the ass on the way out and they're denied every conceivable severance benefit. I hope they do the same shit if there's a sharia rally somewhere in the country.

This is the short sighted thinking I'm worried about. "Idle hands are the devil's playthings." What do you think happens when you take away the earning power from someone who believes people are out to get them and destroy their existence? Do you think suicide bombers have 9 to 5 jobs with great benefits?

Malcolm wrote: The Nazis got created as a direct result of the rest of Europe extorting every last dollar from Germany. That wasn't silencing people, that was robbery, abuse, and petty vendettas. Al Qaeda wouldn't be around today if it weren't for the US deciding to play them off the Russians and then proceeding to hang around and fuck with every thing in the Middle East before, during, and since the Cold War, especially the first Gulf War (Osama was pissed we came over to help). He was doubly pissed when the Saudis, our royal asshole, fundie-loving BFFs, decided to exile him. That's not silence either, those are the random-ass side effects of political power plays. If they wanted him quiet, they'd have killed him.

Yes, the Nazi movement still exists here today because Germany got robbed by Europe. That's what these guys were protesting. And a gay nightclub got shot up in Miami because Osama (weird how you name call Trump, but not him) got exiled.

Ok, I'm intentionally over simplifying and not staying on point, but so did you.

Malcolm wrote: Even I wouldn't go that far.

Just because we wouldn't doesn't make my point less valid.

TheCatt wrote:

Vince wrote: As far as firing Nazis and Klansmen, I'm okay with that if they're being fired for participating in the march. If I owned a store and the guy I hired behind the counter to be the face of my business showed up on the national news carrying one of those white nationalist shields, his locker would be cleared before he got back in town. Same as if he was marching with BLM and showed up on the news.

Do you really think that being a Nazi or Klansman is the same as BLM?

Of course not. Nazis and Klansmen are fascists and have a much longer and deeper history of being terrible people. BLM are communist. But not relevant to my point. If I owned a business I certainly wouldn't want to alienate the police or those that support the police. Therefor the BLM marching on national television has to go.

As an aside, I don't think everyone marching with BLM are communists. But their leadership and manifesto is unarguably communist. So either said employee was reckless enough to follow a group they know nothing about, or they are okay with the state taking my business from me and redistributing it to the masses. I don't want an employee with either character flaw.

Vince taught me what "Antifa" meant. I've been wondering where that word came from.

Funny they use fascist tactics because they are anti-fascist.

Leisher wrote:If someone's yard turned brown due to a drought, and you found a single blade of green grass, you don't get to describe the yard as "lush". Disagreement is different from hoping for or trying to make happen the eradication of those against you.

Leisher wrote:Your personal jihad really makes it hard to listen to your opinions on him. The constant name calling, ripping his every move, even finding flaws when he does something right, wishing for bad things to happen to him and his cronies, etc.

For the eleventy billionth time, my assaults on him aren't personal anymore than his assaults on basic intelligence and common goddamn sense. As for your second sentence, he deserves all the criticism he gets. I have yet to see him do anything that hasn't been at least half a fuck up, mainly because he seems to be incapable of not fucking up in office.

Leisher wrote:Well, you say that, but the discussion here is about suppression of something versus education.

Yes, they're being publicly suppressed from espousing their fucking psychotic, backwards views. In private, they're free to do as they wish -- build a Hitler shrine, put Third Reich flags on their walls, and invite other like-minded fucktards over to their place for their daily Two Minutes of Hate or whatever the fuck it is they do. However, you'll note any adult has free access to all the literature and history of Nazism and any other philosophy that supports (insert race here)'s superiority.

Leisher wrote:the best course of action on dealing with them and others like them (and the level to which they're like them).

You can provide all the education you want, but they have to take it. Some fuckers are lost causes. As long as they don't break the law, they can hate all they want. But they don't get to expect the rest of society to shrug their shoulders and say, "Eh, that's cool."

Leisher wrote: Yes, the Nazi movement still exists here today because Germany got robbed by Europe. That's what these guys were protesting.

Well, their party probably would've been outlawed or murdered out of existence if they didn't succeed in their takeover. And yes, Europe (mainly France, followed by England and Russia) demanding absurd war reparations is the reason Germany's economy went to shit, which is what stoked dissatisfaction and anger in a whole goddamn lot of people who then proceeded to make one boneheaded choice after another, culminating in willingly voting into office someone that would become synonymous as the definition of "evil" ... so yeah, technically Nazism wouldn't be nearly as prevalent. Would their still be white supremacists? Sure. But they'd be without one of their most famous modern "empires."

Leisher wrote: And a gay nightclub got shot up in Miami because Osama (weird how you name call Trump, but not him) got exiled.

If you're going to keep brushing off the historical facts of the specific things you point out and how they got there, then this point is moot. If your point is that in general there are other sources of prejudice, hatred, or idiocy besides those things you specifically mentioned, then to that I reply ... duh. As for your parenthetical expression -- Osama bin Decomposin'. There.

Malcolm wrote: For the eleventy billionth time, my assaults on him aren't personal anymore than his assaults on basic intelligence and common goddamn sense.

So what's your excuse for continuing to do things your fellow forum dwellers have asked you to stop doing?

Malcolm wrote: As for your second sentence, he deserves all the criticism he gets. I have yet to see him do anything that hasn't been at least half a fuck up, mainly because he seems to be incapable of not fucking up in office.

There's at least something he did recently that everyone here agreed was finally a good move. It's in his thread. Dig and find it. You're the only person who still condemned him.

Malcolm wrote: Yes, they're being publicly suppressed from espousing their fucking psychotic, backwards views. In private, they're free to do as they wish -- build a Hitler shrine, put Third Reich flags on their walls, and invite other like-minded fucktards over to their place for their daily Two Minutes of Hate or whatever the fuck it is they do. However, you'll note any adult has free access to all the literature and history of Nazism and any other philosophy that supports (insert race here)'s superiority.

If you're going to keep brushing off valid points and trying to talk around them then this all is moot.

I really wish only Nazis were being suppressed. I really wish simply visiting a library was the cure all for vulnerable people that fall into shit like this.

Malcolm wrote: You can provide all the education you want, but they have to take it. Some fuckers are lost causes. As long as they don't break the law, they can hate all they want. But they don't get to expect the rest of society to shrug their shoulders and say, "Eh, that's cool."

I am a huge proponent of some people are just born evil. I don't argue for them or give a fuck about them. I worry about those weaker folks who get pulled into it. If we help the homeless or people who simply refuse to get a job, why wouldn't we help mentally vulnerable people?

Malcolm wrote: Would their still be white supremacists? Sure. But they'd be without one of their most famous modern "empires."

Yes there would. And one BIG thing I need everything to acknowledge is being a supremacist isn't a whites only thing. As you said, white supremacists simply found the military power to let the world know about them.

And you'll say "Duh", but go look around the message being sent out by the MSM and other groups. The finger there only points in one direction, and not just for this recent event.

Some Muslim just blew up a church! "You can't judge all Muslims by the actions of one."
Some white guy just drove his car into a crowd. "Fucking crackers!"

(Ok, I'm having a bit of fun now...)

Malcolm wrote: If you're going to keep brushing off the historical facts of the specific things you point out and how they got there, then this point is moot. If your point is that in general there are other sources of prejudice, hatred, or idiocy besides those things you specifically mentioned, then to that I reply ... duh.

My point was stay on point. Just because you go off topic doesn't mean I have to.

Hey look, I must be fucking wrong! The ACLU agrees with me!