Welcome to Thunderdome

Leisher wrote: Get used to it. I'm going to really start taking more advantage of my mobility and stealth. I'm not a tank, and thus, shouldn't be exposing myself in fights to take damage just to take damage.

I was REALLY questioning your decision to be the lone survivor of the group. Even Alex put himself out there to soak up some damage. Had I not taken the damage I did, someone else would have fallen. Hell, even the DM forgetting to run those two twig blights for a couple of turns saved someone's (or two people's) life. Large encounters like that, we all have to soak up some of the damage. When we outnumber the bad guys, by all means, send the tanks forward, let them do their job. But in big fights like that, we have to spread the damage out.

Or, if your character is the type who isn't going to take a couple hits for the team....

Took a night to ponder this because it raises some interesting tactical questions. It also very much proves that people have short memories and folks are only watching fights from their character's perspective.

I'm glad my sacrifice against the vampire spawn, when our tanks way out ran the fight and didn't check the corners, and our wizard actively ducked out of the way, has been forgotten. I have been close to unconsciousness in every fight not involving druids, but I guess it truly is "what have you done for me lately".

GORDON wrote: Or, if your character is the type who isn't going to take a couple hits for the team....

I like this statement because it's about the actual characters, and I feel like we forget that part of the game sometimes. (Ok, it's probably what we're worst at...) Things did work out to fit Koban's character, but I didn't plan it that way. I wish I had thought it out as deeply as I now analyze it, but I did not.

Koban would absolutely take damage for some of the team, but he'd do it in a smart way. "Some of the team"? Yeah, Koban stills hold a grudge towards Mordigan and Zelda. He's going to fight with them as there have been apologies (kind of) and they are on a road to a cure, but he's definitely holding a grudge. He's not going to intentionally fuck them over in a fight, but sacrificing himself for them is probably a stretch at this point.

Anyway, back to your statement, Koban would put himself in harm's way, but he wouldn't be the last guy in this scene:


If Cake was Nic Cage in that scene he would have been telling that guy to go up there. Also, keep that scene in mind because I'll be referencing it again.

Cakedaddy wrote: I was REALLY questioning your decision to be the lone survivor of the group.

You mean why did I act like you in every other fight? Being the "lone survivor" was not my plan. In fact, getting caught in that entryway wasn't planned, it's just how the fight played out.

If you don't remember, on the first night of the fight I was moving around upstairs, getting up close and personal, and was far more exposed. I then had to jam that upstairs door from opening to prevent three baddies from joining the fight. I then jumped to the first level and was fighting with the rest of you when the three baddies I had prevented entry to upstairs came out of that first level stairway door. Meanwhile, 5 more blights were heading in to join the fight from the side door.

I moved to lock that door taking an opportunity attack in the process for 14 damage. Yeah, it was negated by my disengage, but that was over half my HP in a single grab. The fight was really just getting going and a medium level creature had simply grabbed me for half my health. It spooked me.

Anyway, I got to that door and locked it, which prevented 5 more blights from joining the fight immediately. 5 blights with ranged attacks who would have walked into a room where Szoldar was being held by a baddie and Mordigan was entrapped. Both were also already quite wounded.

Was it the turning point of the fight? Probably.

Did I save the whole party by preventing Szoldar and Mordigan from being overwhelmed? Probably. I mean, I was, literally, the only person who could reach that door and lock it.

You're welcome.

Anyway, as I was in the entryway the druid cast entangle on the room outside of it. So I was stuck with no place to maneuver. I immediately focused on saving Szoldar. My first shot killed the one holding him, which freed him to move and attack.

I then contemplated trying to help BeeDee with the barbarian (An unplanned moment that would have perfectly fit Koban's character. Traveling farther to help BeeDee instead of standing still to help Mordigan.), but the entangle spell and the stairs prevented that. Remember the DM pointing the stairs out and not allowing my attack? That's when I instead started attacking the druid casting the entangle spell to try and free Mordigan.

Once that druid was down I killed a blight coming in behind Gordon. This is around when the Ent appeared. I then attacked the druid up top that kept hitting all below who weren't hiding from her attacks and who was also attacking Zelda. I hit her despite being her advantage of cover. I then climbed up to hit her again and do so via eliminating her cover advantage.

That's when the Ent came bursting through and I zoomed downstairs alone, a move you strongly supported, to start the fight with main bad guy.

Cakedaddy wrote: Even Alex put himself out there to soak up some damage.

The way I remember it, that is not entirely accurate.

You didn't "put yourself out there". You had gone upstairs and then during the fight, literally said, "I'm trapped" before heading back downstairs. (This was in the vat room, not the basement.) Then, while trying to hide you were surprised by the twigs.

I'd also argue that the necromancer...sorry wizard...shouldn't be trying to soak up damage. I mean what is your HP? (Reminder, one grab from a mid level creature would have reduced my HP by over half.)

Taking damage is going to occur naturally in any fight. You shouldn't be throwing yourself into the fray, if that's not your purpose, until absolutely critical and/or you run out of spells.

Large encounters like that, we all have to soak up some of the damage. When we outnumber the bad guys, by all means, send the tanks forward, let them do their job. But in big fights like that, we have to spread the damage out.

So let's talk tactics.

We all fucked that fight up badly. First, the DM clearly drove us like cattle right into that battle. Well done sir.

Then we were the SEALs coming up from the sewer into an undefended position giving our enemies the advantage (see: the scene I linked). We, literally, gave up the high ground. Why? The druid up top had a cover advantage that we willingly abandoned. We goofed. Instead of being surrounded with no cover, we should have been up top with cover from ranged enemies and better able to control the front lines. Zelda could have parked that moonbeam at the bottom of the stairs.

Anyway, specifically for me, shouldn't I be using my Rogue/Thief skills to maximum advantage? What good am I lying unconscious on the floor if I'm a damage dealer? Remember my duel with Mordigan where he immediately lost simply because he couldn't hit me when I climbed that roof? I then stood toe to toe with him and used none of the Rogue skills and got massacred. YOU told me that I should never be fighting without using my skills. So which is it?

That's not being snarky either. I'm legit asking. My character has a high armor rating, but probably the lowest or one of the lowest HP totals. By design, the Rogue is meant to be slippery, not a front line guy. Am I better off being mobile to address things like doors needing locked and dealing constant damage or do you want me intentionally getting hit and us possibly losing all that DPS? Who do we want falling first? A tank or a damage dealer? Also, that was our biggest fight, but it wasn't until halfway through and it kept getting larger. Point being, we can't go into a fight thinking "This is a fight of this specific size, and thus, I'll fight this way."

Question for the DM: Say Koban stands still in the entangle to soak up some damage and goes unconscious. When the ent and the hundred blights came in and the rest of the party ran would the new baddies kill an unconscious party member or would they actively hunt the conscious ones?

Leisher wrote:
Question for the DM: Say Koban stands still in the entangle to soak up some damage and goes unconscious. When the ent and the hundred blights came in and the rest of the party ran would the new baddies kill an unconscious party member or would they actively hunt the conscious ones?

I hadn't thought about that a whole lot. Initial reaction would be kill. The Staff Druid controlling the blights ordered them to do that and had the "key" so to speak. If the blights were leaderless, they are kind of mindless and would just move on to the next moving body. They hate humans but have low INT. BUT - they do eat people, like that woodcutter in your first encounter.

Tactically, I thought you guys did fine. You had healing potions just in case, and I rolled pretty good early on. Plenty of stories of parties starting the fight outside the winery. 30 Needle Blights on round one with no cover. A druid + retinue leave the winery and join each round after. Could get out of hand fast.

What i liked about that fight was that, more than once, disaster was one turn away. We fought through it.

And I am not personally attacking anyone, here. BeeDee may have his opinions, but they aren't necessarily mine.

Plus he has that weird sense of humor, so.

You talk as if it's all or nothing. As if you have to pick between "Always taking damage and dying, or staying back and taking none". Every fight is different. Each fight should be fought exactly as it needs to be.

I was the first to take damage in the winery. I knew that far door had to be closed to prevent the outside bad guys from getting in. I REALLY wanted to find a corner to hide in, but instead, ran away from safety to ensure the party's survival. Alex had no idea where BD was or what he was going to be doing. 20/20, Alex wouldn't have made that move because BD came through the door and closed it securing the area. BUT, heat of the moment, with the information at hand, Alex did the exact opposite of what he wanted to do for the sake of the party. Alex was near death the entire fight and only survived because of his 'life steal' ability. End of fight, he moved up next to Zelda hoping for a heal. He'd never ask for one in the heat of battle, but he was hoping for one. And didn't we shut and lock the door as soon as we came into the winery? I didn't understand the need for you to go back to it, but, I figured I must be wrong. Plus, do blights know how to work a doorknob? The ones near the stable didn't come in until that druid and barbarian came down and opened the doors for them.

You say you are the most vulnerable because you have the lowest HP. That may be true, but only by a couple, I'm betting. I have 28. But my AC is 13 (with the robe). I'm VERY easy to hit. I'll happily trade you my extra HP for your higher AC! However, bottom line, 9 fights out of 10, neither of us should be upfront. We should always be behind cover, etc. I would say that about Zoldar(sp?) and Zelda as well. BD and Mordigan should be up front. I would argue that they should take the defensive action more than they do helping them be a damage sponge. Defensive stance gives anything attacking you disadvantage. With their high AC, that makes them very difficult to hit. Meanwhile, all the ranged are chewing up the bad guys. But I get it. It's fun to kill! That particular fight though, was the 1 out of 10 where everything is different. Again, had I not taken that 35+ points of damage that fight (I have 28 HP, healed for 10, was at 1HP at one point), how many others would have died? Spread that damage out to Zoldar, Mord, and BD, are they all dead? I purposefully tried to keep those tiny blights busy because they are weak and I counted on being able to take hits from them. I knew the bigger things could potentially insta-pop me.

At the beginning of the fight, of course we had no idea what was in store for us. But it wasn't long before Alex started questioning Koban's choice to stay hidden. Alex questioned Zelda's choice to never use her heal on anyone too. He judged BD for healing himself instead of others wondering "How is this guy STILL a paladin?!"

From a game standpoint, I understand that Gordon didn't want to die. Kat Cat Katt Zelda thought hurrying up and killing stuff was better than healing someone that could immediately lose that new health to the stuff she didn't kill instead healing that person. Leisher wanted to be a selfish prick , or thought if everyone else fell, there's a choke point he could use to rapier them as they came for him, or he could leave and convince the people outside to come finish stuff and rescue us, or whatever other obviously stupid thing he may have been thinking. I'm seriously kidding with those by the way.

This leads me to: also from a game standpoint, we are rarely tactically effective. It seems to be a lot of random actions that come together that end in an outcome. We haven't had enough fights for me to be able to read you guys yet. I'm not sure how/if this can be fixed. It reminds me of our old League days when we had no tactics or plans. We just chased kills. Much of this is because of the dynamics of the game. We can't have a 5 minute tactical discussion between turns because rounds are 6 seconds each. But I think if we communicated more, it would help. In your 6 seconds, share your assessment of the task at hand and state your intentions. Would help others glomb onto your action and support you instead of having 6 different plans happening simultaneously. And when I say 'you', it's all inclusive. Not just talking to Koban/Leisher.

Alex doesn't judge Koban ( and I don't judge Leisher) for any of his previous fights/actions. I didn't forget the vampire, or the whatevers (I don't remember), actions/sacrifices he made. I questioned your choice to not soak up some of the damage this fight. Not your entire existence! This was our biggest fight yet, and we made a good amount of tactical errors. Not taking higher ground was one. Koban hiding in a closet was another. But bottom line, you be you. I didn't voice my opinion until way into the fight when things seemed very dire to me/Alex. That's when I/he mentioned "We may need Koban out here taking some of this damage". Because over all, I don't know what you have brewing and I'm not going to start barking orders in the middle of the fight because I think something different should be happening.

On another note, I have always wanted to have specific words I would say for my spells instead of "Alex mutters some arcane words and . . . ". I'm considering female character names from movies.
Pointing at Mordigan with hate in his voice, Alex says "Anastasia Steele" and 3 bolts of arcane energy shoot from his finger tips and slam into Mordigan for 12 points of damage.
Alex holds his staff forward and mutters quietly, "Padme Amidala" and 3 of the twig blights fall to the floor asleep.
Alex swipes his staff in front of him yelling "Katniss Everdeen" and BD gets a boner. That's not a spell. I just think that would actually happen.

And lastly, to address one of Koban's comments.
ALEX: Glares at Koban. "I'm not a necromancer, and don't call me one. That shit just comes to me. I don't like it. I fight it every day. It's just there. But I'm NOT a necromancer, and don't ever call me one again."

i don't fault anyone for the way that fight turned out or any actions that Koban took. We couldn't get into a formation and create a front line because baddies started coming in from all entrances and angles and we were surrounded rather quickly.

For one, i was grateful that Koban was able to seal off one of the entrances to keep us from being overwhelmed more than we already were. That was a tough fight and it was meant to be that way. Also, like Troy said he was rolling really well and i know i had a few untimely low rolls. Like when i get a +7 to the STR saving throw against the entangle and rolled a 2! If i wouldn't have been bound up for so many rounds i would've been able to do a helluva lot more than just stand there and take pop shots, but that's just part of the game.

I must say though that Koban gets Uncanny Dodge at level 5, so this will basically double his effective HP. With his already high AC he will be pretty hard to hit and will only take half damage (once per turn). So while i agree that he should be using his mobility and stealth to his advantage, i don't think that he will need to run and hide as much as he might think. But all it really takes is one round of unlucky rolls to really KO any one of us.

Troy wrote: Initial reaction would be kill.

We need to keep that in mind in the future. No retreating and backtracking.

Troy wrote: You had healing potions just in case

Koban doesn't have any healing potions.

GORDON wrote: And I am not personally attacking anyone, here. BeeDee may have his opinions, but they aren't necessarily mine.

I didn't take your post as an attack. Cake's fell into that category far more, and I didn't even think that was an "attack", but more a questioning of my actions during the fight.

Cakedaddy wrote: You talk as if it's all or nothing. As if you have to pick between "Always taking damage and dying, or staying back and taking none". Every fight is different. Each fight should be fought exactly as it needs to be.

No healing potions and one normal attack, not even a special or big attack, from a blight thing was over half my health. It pretty much is all or nothing.

Cakedaddy wrote: And didn't we shut and lock the door as soon as we came into the winery? I didn't understand the need for you to go back to it, but, I figured I must be wrong.

You were indeed wrong unless we all completely forgot about it. In which case, you're blaming the DM for not altering the door on the map. Koban took the opportunity attack for the sole purpose of heading to that room to close that door and lock it. If you remove the need for me to go close and lock that door my positioning in the fight probably drastically changes. Instead of running to that door I probably attack that blight with the rapier and then stay there to avoid the opportunity attack.

Cakedaddy wrote: Plus, do blights know how to work a doorknob?

Once the door was shut and locked Troy was pretty clear they couldn't come in, but I don't know about the doorknob thing.

Cakedaddy wrote: You say you are the most vulnerable because you have the lowest HP. That may be true, but only by a couple, I'm betting. I have 28. But my AC is 13 (with the robe). I'm VERY easy to hit. I'll happily trade you my extra HP for your higher AC!

You underestimate your healing ability.

Cakedaddy wrote: I would argue that they should take the defensive action more than they do helping them be a damage sponge. Defensive stance gives anything attacking you disadvantage. With their high AC, that makes them very difficult to hit. Meanwhile, all the ranged are chewing up the bad guys.

That is a thing?

Cakedaddy wrote: Again, had I not taken that 35+ points of damage that fight (I have 28 HP, healed for 10, was at 1HP at one point), how many others would have died?

I would have died from the 35+ points easily.

Cakedaddy wrote: I purposefully tried to keep those tiny blights busy because they are weak and I counted on being able to take hits from them. I knew the bigger things could potentially insta-pop me.

So...who did you want me to take damage from? The medium thing grabbed me for over half my health with a normal attack. Should I have run over and fought twigs with you? I was attacked during the fight a few times, but they missed. I apologize for them missing?

Cakedaddy wrote: But it wasn't long before Alex started questioning Koban's choice to stay hidden.

Koban wasn't "hidden" at all. I just kept retreating to a space where fewer enemies could take clear shots at me. However, it was for a FAR fewer number of rounds than you remember.

Cakedaddy wrote: But I think if we communicated more, it would help. In your 6 seconds, share your assessment of the task at hand and state your intentions.

I thought I did a great job of explaining my thought process. I was detailing everything over both nights with Troy and he'd respond back with what he'd allow and what he wouldn't. Jamming one door, retreating down, closing and locking the next door, clearly being trapped between a locked door and an area of effect spell, climbing the wall to reduce cover for the upstairs druid, attacking a blight to free Szoldar, getting out of the way so others can shoot big bad, etc.

But yes, I do agree that overall as a group we need to try and express plans a bit more vocally. The only downside to that is the enemy is listening...

Cakedaddy wrote: That's when I/he mentioned "We may need Koban out here taking some of this damage".

I never heard this line.

Cakedaddy wrote: Because over all, I don't know what you have brewing and I'm not going to start barking orders in the middle of the fight because I think something different should be happening.

Maybe don't bark orders, but ask questions.

And lastly necromancer, I don't think you read my wall closely as some of your points were addressed up there.

Stranger wrote: I must say though that Koban gets Uncanny Dodge at level 5, so this will basically double his effective HP. With his already high AC he will be pretty hard to hit and will only take half damage (once per turn). So while i agree that he should be using his mobility and stealth to his advantage, i don't think that he will need to run and hide as much as he might think.

Shut up Stranger!!!! I've gone out of my way to NOT mention this hoping Troy wouldn't know about it. Now he's either going to take it as a challenge to kill me or target you guys figuring "Eh, Koban will just brush it off IF it even hits him."

BD healed himself when he was down to 11 hitpoins from death, within range of three enemies. If he pulled back to heal.someone else, attacks of.opportunity would have killed him. If he hadn't healed at all, he was probably dead the next round.

If he had dropped.right then, I bet a dollar that fight would have been lost.

He also purposely kept the giant barbarian focused on him.

BD questions your perception of what it means to be a selfless Paladin.

Leisher wrote: I've gone out of my way to NOT mention this hoping Troy wouldn't know about it. Now he's either going to take it as a challenge to kill me or target you guys figuring "Eh, Koban will just brush it off IF it even hits him."

I'm sure he already knew, and if he didn't he would know after the first time you used it so it wouldn't be a secret for long.

Just a reminder that i won't be playing this Friday.

Fill me in on all the happenings. Have fun!

Alex will be 30 minutes late.

Stranger is out.

I'll be on, but kind of missing for the first 10-15 minutes.

Zelda is probably going to be late too. Thinking we should call the game tonight and pick up next week?

Deal.

Done. Game off.

I'm in LA next Friday. I'll try to still DM though. I'll let you know by Wednesday.

Called it off cause we were going to start a little late? Can't be doing that. Especially when there are so many weeks coming up that we need off for legitimate reasons.

This already looks to be going through the end of the year.

I'm personally not thrilled about every Friday night of 2018 being booked.

2/6 players and the finals about to start. Seemed like a good night to take a break.

Even if we take a month off in summer we should finish Ravenloft in 2018. One way or the other.

Hey - will the admins let Stuart register so he can post/read this thread?