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Posted: **Mon Jul 30, 2012 2:56 pm**

I get what you're saying, I really do, but I have a few things to point out. Don't get mad!!!

AD carry should get ALL the minions.

Remove the "AD" part of that. Diana is an AD carry that happens to use AP. I would say Teemo is a carry as well considering the number of kills he gets.

Watch any pro stream. Watch bottom lane. See how many minions the supports kills.. ZERO!

When I lane with Gordo, he'll pop out and grab some last hits, and I purposely avoid hitting that minion so he can. He's not building full support, so we have to share. He lets me get most of the kills, but sometimes I'll back off and he hits entire waves. We supplement our income with champion and turret kills.

As for you, can I start calling you out when you ks minions? It has been known to happen...

Also the AD doesn't just hack away at the minions and push the wave opening up for a nice gank from the jungle.

I think this depends on the situation. Sometimes you don't need ganks. Sometimes you can shove your opponents into their tower and make them play off their heels. Trust me, I played from under my turret with my lane partner all weekend. It worked out really well for the other teams.

Also, since I have your attention, I want to point out what Gordo meant in that TT game when he was telling you to let the minions come into base... You said, "Why let the other minions kill them and nobody get gold?" However, that's not what happens. The enemy was spawning super minions at that point, and they will easily kill our minions and enter our base. It's easier to kill them in our base where it's safe, than to be far out and unprotected. At that point in the game, if you're on defense, you want the minions' "front line" to happen within your base's walls, not outside of it. And that is what he meant by, "Let those minions into our base." It's also why we sometimes let a team kill our inhibitor. A dead inhibitor means lots of cash and experience closer to us...

Posted: **Mon Jul 30, 2012 3:33 pm**

Leisher mentioned he gave me advice, and was ignored.... hand to dog, i have no memory of that. Next time make sure i am paying attention.

Do i talk too much in-game? It seems like i am constantly calling out when and where i see bad guys.

Posted: **Mon Jul 30, 2012 3:50 pm**

As far as i can tell, masteries ONLY make a difference in the early game. You get 3-5 points of extra damage or armor or whatever, and early game that could make a 10%difference in your game. Once you start buying items giving 90 Ap or 100 armor, those few points make no diffrrence.

I say all the time we are a late-game team, and just need to stop dying so much early game. Defensive masteries help in that cause.

Posted: **Mon Jul 30, 2012 4:07 pm**

really, im not getting mad at all. im just trying to get a point across. i happen to watch ALOT of the top players in the world stream. (And im not talking about the streams that they put on the game when you log in) They always talk about their builds, rolls, strategies and all sorts of others things. Now i know that im not even close to being pro, but i do like to think that i have learned alot about certain rolls and common game play that is routine in ranked play.

Now im not saying that we haven't had some good success in bottom lane when you push the other team up against thier tower and make them lose cs in that way. But when its pretty obvious that our early game is easily our weakness maybe we should only concentrate on last hitting minions and not engaging the enemy. Let them push forward and then its easy for the jungle to gank. Now we've got a 3v2 situation that should (hopefully) go in our favor.

The same goes for top and mid. i know the other night when i was jungling i would just keep going top cause Gordo was doing well keeping his health up, getting good cs and not pushing too far out and it made for easy ganks. Not always kills, but burnt flashes and making them recall to heal was worth it. Then it was easy to push the lane hard. Its just not ideal for the jungle to just baby sit the lane until someone else gets back from healing up. we should be trying to set up situations that give us an advantage and let the jungle do what they are supposed to do.

I know i don't have all the answers, but if our early game is what is putting us behind then i think that we should just concentrate on getting farm for the first 20 mins. Lets not push lanes untill we can set the other team up for a situation to our liking, hopefully get a succesful gank and then push the lane. Wash, rinse and repeat. Thats just how i see succesful teams do it when i spectate.

Posted: **Mon Jul 30, 2012 4:15 pm**

Leisher mentioned he gave me advice, and was ignored.... hand to dog, i have no memory of that. Next time make sure i am paying attention.

Yeah, I mentioned it as we were defending mid, you were up pushing, and Hitler was nowhere to be found. No worries.

(btw, "Hitler" is never getting old. You should get a trophy for that.)

Do i talk too much in-game? It seems like i am constantly calling out when and where i see bad guys.

Nope. Heavy sighing is not talking.

On SR, Scooty is the silent one. He needs to talk a lot more. Everyone else is a good mix. I think it's important to call out who we see and where as it helps folks who might be busy, and can't glance at the minimap. After all, wards only work if you're looking.

I like hearing constant chatter, but lately it's been silence or sarcasm.

As far as i can tell, masteries ONLY make a difference in the early game. You get 3-5 points of extra damage or armor or whatever, and early game that could make a 10%difference in your game. Once you start buying items giving 90 Ap or 100 armor, those few points make no diffrrence.

True for the lower level ones, yes. However, there's a few that are quite large. The final Offensive mastery is a boost to attacks by 6% against targets under 40%. The final defensive one is a max health boost by 3%, and all stuns are shortened by 10%.

In related news, I've already made rune changes, so we'll see how they work out.

Posted: **Mon Jul 30, 2012 4:26 pm**

really, im not getting mad at all. im just trying to get a point across. i happen to watch ALOT of the top players in the world stream. (And im not talking about the streams that they put on the game when you log in) They always talk about their builds, rolls, strategies and all sorts of others things. Now i know that im not even close to being pro, but i do like to think that i have learned alot about certain rolls and common game play that is routine in ranked play.

Now im not saying that we haven't had some good success in bottom lane when you push the other team up against thier tower and make them lose cs in that way. But when its pretty obvious that our early game is easily our weakness maybe we should only concentrate on last hitting minions and not engaging the enemy. Let them push forward and then its easy for the jungle to gank. Now we've got a 3v2 situation that should (hopefully) go in our favor.

The same goes for top and mid. i know the other night when i was jungling i would just keep going top cause Gordo was doing well keeping his health up, getting good cs and not pushing too far out and it made for easy ganks. Not always kills, but burnt flashes and making them recall to heal was worth it. Then it was easy to push the lane hard. Its just not ideal for the jungle to just baby sit the lane until someone else gets back from healing up. we should be trying to set up situations that give us an advantage and let the jungle do what they are supposed to do.

I know i don't have all the answers, but if our early game is what is putting us behind then i think that we should just concentrate on getting farm for the first 20 mins. Lets not push lanes untill we can set the other team up for a situation to our liking, hopefully get a succesful gank and then push the lane. Wash, rinse and repeat. Thats just how i see succesful teams do it when i spectate.

I just didn't want you to get mad when I pointed out that you kill creeps out from under me. You don't do it a ton, but it happens.

And yeah, we should look to the pros to see what they do, but at the same time, we have to react to situations.

If we're getting pushed under our turret, our lane needs the jungler to help out. Meanwhile, the other lanes should shift strategy if they're doing something that might require the jungler's help because he's down bottom.

If Gordo and I have success pushing, we should push, and go back to conservative when the enemy proves we shouldn't push, which is typically what we do.

What I'm solo top with Teemo, my whole purpose is to harass the shit out of the enemy top so that he/she runs through their health potions and has to leave. Often.

Lots of variables.

Let's break down the goals for tonight:
1. Have a plan.
2. Be positive.
3. Talk.
4. Play our roles.
5. Don't die.
6. Play conservatively until lvl 6, and then we can open it up, but cautiously.

Sound good?

Posted: **Mon Jul 30, 2012 4:51 pm**

I am out the next 2 nights. The wife made me take another vacation. But, at least that means you can do a TT without hitler.

Posted: **Mon Jul 30, 2012 8:17 pm**

The only guy who takes more vacations than you is Obama.

Posted: **Mon Jul 30, 2012 8:29 pm**

I actually dont even know wtf. It really is my wife behind all.this shit.

Posted: **Mon Jul 30, 2012 9:18 pm**

I figured you were going to another anti gay rally with your son.

If you don't want to read this whole thing, just read the last line.

I'm having trouble with Ziggs, Jiggs, etc in mid. Obviously. I don't play as much as I used to and am way out of practice. Not to mention that Morganna is tough to deal with. You know how she's always on our ban list? Ya, she's hard. So, shit's gonna happen. She catches me twice, and I'm dead. Last night, she was a really good Morg, I've never been able to handle Morg. I just tried to keep the damage to a minimum. And personally, I don't think a champ with three kills at 15 minutes into the game is "extremely fed". She was killing you easily because she was just that good. I'm not sure switching lanes with anyone would have helped. Bottom line, she was good enough to be able to kill any one of us. I realize I'm no super star, but I can recognize a good player when I see on. I've also been working with Cass in mid with bots. But honestly, I don't get her. I've never been impressed with her as an enemy and don't know where Leisher's obsession with her comes from. I doubt I will ever be very effective with her. Unless I'm told what is good about her and can exploit it. The ONLY thing she has going for her is early game harass. She's got range and a lingering poison that's a pain to deal with, but only early game. Late game, it's pretty much a non-issue. Her damage is very weak, even with a full build (using builds off of mobofire). Her ult is rediculously dumb. She's squishy as fuck, so she has to stay out of the fight. But, her ult's range is about half of what a ranged basic attack's is. So, she's gotta get all up in people's shit to use her ult. So, at best, it's something she can throw at the enemy team as they come in to kill her. I think I've said all this before. I have no idea what to do with her. Well, except make her play with her boobs. I'm told that Veigar is broken, but I don't agree with that one. Yes, people can still flash out of his circle. However, unlike before, after they do, they are stunned. So, not ideal (or the way I think it should be), but better than before. So instead of the circle stopping them mid flash at the edge of the circle and stunning them. They are allowed to flash the full distance, but are then stunned where they land. And the best thing about Veigar is that the only champ that can survive him is a full health tank. He can insta pop ANY carry or nuke mage in the game. And even a full health tank ends up at about 20% health making it easy for the rest of the team to kill. So, I dare Rammus/Singed/Etc/Etc to initiate. A single tank is a non-issue with Veigar. I really think we under utilize Veigar. Lastly, personally, I think I should be learning Morganna. Any champ that we repeatedly ban because they are a bitch to deal with. . . should be the next champ that we learn/play. Think of all the people we can't stand to see on the other team. Why the fuck are we not playing them? Oh, for the record, the very next game, I was dominating Zarra or whatever the new chick's name is. Granted, that player was playing a new champ and wasn't very good. But, I don't have trouble against every champ. Only good ones. Much like Gordon, early game laning my feeding is kept very minimal. 90% of my deaths come after group fights start.

Which leads to, we have OP champs in our arsenal, but we never see them. When Leisher is struggling to figure out what AD carry champ he should play because due to Hitler's pick and/or Stranger crying that he can't ever jungle (just kidding), he doesn't pick Trynd. Why not? Especially with all the losing we've been doing. Leisher owns Darious. The OP win button that is ridiculously broken. But, he never plays him. Why not? Feel free to ask me the same question. But to my knowledge, I don't own an OP champ. But, you better believe I'll be buying the next AP mid nuker that comes out counting on it's out of the gate OPness. Sorry to pick on you, Leisher, but you are the one that has all the OP champs! I have considered trying to learn Trynd just to see him on the field again.

I'm very much on the same page as Stranger. We over push our minions. There are benefits to pushing them to their turret because it keeps their last hits to a minimum (unless they know what they are doing), but they get full XP. It's better to push them off the minion group and let their minions kill ours, then kill theirs. Now they get nothing. We have no discipline while laning. People are impatient. Stranger's comes mostly late game when he's farming every damn lane like a boss. It's a full on race to try to grab a few scraps. But, what I agree with are his rune/mastery picks. If you are an AD carry that is dying too much, you don't buy armor (right Scooty/Caitlyn?). You change your tactics avoid damage. Why wouldn't the same hold true for runes/masteries? AD carry? Do your job. Do damage, stay alive. Don't buy armor. I go full attack speed with my AD carry. 33% from runes is starting the game with a free item and 33% carries well to the end of the game. My support runes (maoki) are all support and utility. Etc. I have recently changed my AP runes that is closer to what other people say I should have and I don't think I do as well. Much like my boots of swiftness on all my champs. No one will ever convince me that my ability to outrun the enemy is less valuable than anything else. If I can't catch them, my boots of bloody anal raping do NOTHING. I have chased down to many retreating enemies and escaped too many pursuing enemies to believe anything anyone else has to say. . . So, in summary. Take runes to do your job, not to counter you doing your job poorly. Don't over push minions to either prevent the enemy from leveling gold/xp and it makes for better ganking opportunities by the jungler. They can't gank when the enemy is under their turret. It might work well for us in some games. But I submit that those games are against an inferior enemy. Equal/better enemies and you can't do that without consequences.

Last topic, teamwork. Communication. We are really good at alerting each other of enemy locations. But, that information seems ignored more often than not. Sometimes, you point out an enemy location as a warning and someone still goes there and dies. Other times, you point out a weak enemies location and no one goes to finish the job or provide back up. The information is not being used correctly. Leisher let Gordon know that he thought is split pushing was wrong. But, the way he said it was very passive. It was something like "I'm not sure it's working". Instead, he should have said "Stop split pushing. It's not working and we really need you a defense." Based on Gordon's earlier statements, he would have done it. Mainly because it would have been more clear. But, we have to walk on eggshells during the game or else someone gets pissed off. So, I can understand Leisher beating around the bush instead of being more direct. Also, we aren't responding as a team. At all. When someone is fighting, there's no real direction. Sometimes we respond to provide back up, and it works out for us. Other times, someone sees that as an opportunity to split push. But since intentions are never announced, the fighters assume backup is coming, the split pushers assume the fighters are falling back creating a diversion, and everything fails. No one is taking charge. Call for retreat so pushers can push, call targets and tell everyone to come now, etc. We are back to responding to distress after we finish getting the blue buff or staying in a fight way too long thinking the people on the other side of the map can somehow respond and help. In summary, I think this is our biggest problem. Regardless of what champ we pick or how many times we die and/or when we die, when we communicate and play as a team, we win. I think we are a late game team because it's not until our backs are against the wall that someone finally decides they really actually want to win and pulls their head out of the ass and forces everyone to start playing as a team. Early game "La la la. New game. Slowly farm and make jokes about random shit. La la la." Late game "Fucking fucker shits. They are trash talking us and I'm going to shove those words so far up their ass they are going to say them again with shit breath." "Ok team, this is what we are going to do. And what we do today, echos in eternity and stuff." And then we win.

Teamwork, above all else.

Posted: **Tue Jul 31, 2012 12:14 am**

We shouldn't have won that last game.

Posted: **Tue Jul 31, 2012 12:54 am**

I'll get to that wall of text tomorrow.

Explain why we shouldn't have won that last game. Besides Nidalee being so good that you could use it as "Exhibit A" in proving that people do have hacks for the game.

We crushed Graves and held Darius in check. They couldn't get past our defense. The one ace was the turning point as it allowed us to open the path all the way to their middle turret. From that point on, the game went on a lot longer, but the outcome was never in doubt.

Posted: **Wed Aug 01, 2012 6:48 am**

Because Scooty wasn't in the game at all. He was constantly a minimum of 2 levels behind the whole other team. Mostly lone wolfing it around. Attacked their turret with no minion support and Graves standing there hitting him. End of game: We catch Nid in the jungle and burst her down real quick. We then push into their base and kill the other two in a fierce fight where we die as well. So, you and I ace the enemy, but die in the process. He's killing the wolves on our side of the jungle and we have to urge him to come win the game. He started the game really slow, not really doing anything but wandering between lanes and not farming. Snarky comments about the dumb decisions I was making. Etc. Just completely out of the game. It was pretty much 2.5v3. He wasn't a complete train wreck where he was feeding and really making it hard for us. He was just not a part of the team.

Posted: **Wed Aug 01, 2012 9:25 am**

Yeah, I thought you were going to go there.

He wasn't exactly on the same page as us was he? I think he was a shade shy of a random 5th. He wasn't talking, he was doing his own thing, and when he did talk he was fighting with you.

There was one moment I remember clearly where that Nidalee killed him with two blind shots. The first was when he and I were at red. She tossed the spear over the wall from top lane. He and I ran back to base, and she must have run immediately and blind tossed a spear from the minion spawn on the left above bot and hit him again, getting the kill.

When he spawned, he ran immediately to her position in what I can only assume was an act of vengeance. I don't remember if he died or not, but I do remember thinking it was really stupid.

Posted: **Wed Aug 01, 2012 1:10 pm**

I heard a patch is hitting today. It'll contain Diana, but she won't be available yet.

Posted: **Wed Aug 01, 2012 3:12 pm**

That sounds like a lot of aggravation.

Posted: **Wed Aug 01, 2012 3:18 pm**

Scooty's play or the patch?

The last thing Scooty did was run around their nexus at the end letting minions kill it. I did not care for that and told him so.

Posted: **Wed Aug 01, 2012 6:23 pm**

I am available tonight, and I promise to do 90% less lone-wolfing in the jungle, and 50% less criticizing of Stranger than that other teammate.

Posted: **Wed Aug 01, 2012 8:48 pm**

I'm going to leave the bar soon and will be available.

Posted: **Thu Aug 02, 2012 11:40 am**

In that TT I agree with Cake that we were odds on favorites to lose from the start due to their lineup. What I didn't expect was their strategy. We've never seen anything like that.

That's where I see our problem. We don't react. If we hit a snag, we just ride it out and hope for the best, then say, "play more conservative" afterwards.

Ok, that might be a good piece of advice, however what gets frustrating about it is that it doesn't apply to all situations, and it can lose us games.

For that game we needed to all buy pink eye and go around killing their wards. We didn't, and instead were forced to play conservatively because we didn't know where they were. Meanwhile, they controlled the map because they knew where we were.

It was a really good strategy, and they were decent players. Despite the loss, I'm happy we saw that game. Wards are ridiculously important, and we learned a new strategy that we might want to adopt or at least try out.

Aside from the lack of proper reaction, we shouldn't have gone on and on about what happened in that game. Still talking about it into the second game wasn't winning us that first game. Continuing to talk about it that much pretty much proves the point that we're not reacting properly. Granted it was something we'd never seen, but we've got to get over losses quicker.

In the first SR, I was Fiora, but had I played Teemo, I would have immediately suggested Gordo go bot, and switch with me. I know he's done fine against Darius previously, but Teemo is the "meta" for countering Darius. That's the sort of reactions we need to start doing on the fly. We're getting better, but there's a lot of room for improvement.

And yes Cake, I was just teasing you about the "team leader" thing. I've said this before, but apparently it didn't set in, you're the obvious choice to keep us focused in the game because the rest of us aren't as calm. You haven't rage quit or openly bitched about champions. The only things you do negatively is fight with Scooty and say "play conservatively" too much.

That's not to say you're the sole voice and decision maker, but I think you should be our "guide". Point out what you're seeing and let us all figure out what to do about it. You call out primaries.

1. Communication
2. Reaction/Adjustments
3. Wards

P.S. Darius sucks.

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