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The votes that matter in DC are bought and sold on a daily basis.

I agree, but that's off topic.

Because some states are dicks about proving residency.

I'll bet they're not when it comes to collecting taxes.

Indeed. The homeless are still citizens who are meant to be able to vote, but it's hard to show two recent utility bills as proof of residence when you don't even have a home.

Homeless people should be allowed to vote, and are generally known to homeless workers in an area. A program could be created to ensure they're identified. This isn't an insurmountable problem.

Plus when you don't have a car and live in a place without public transportation, traveling 20+ miles to the DMV can be a real pain in the ass

Covered earlier.

Not to mention what you are supposed to do if you work a daily grind job that has no option for time off for that sort of thing.

This poor person that works 24/7/365, well, their vote doesn't matter. Why? Because if they can't get time off for an ID, how the fuck will they ever get time off to vote?!? Seriously though, would it really be that difficult to find a solution for them too?

There are going to be extreme examples of voters who have trouble. It should be up to them to identify those issues well before an election and notify someone. It should then be the government's job to ensure that citizen is properly identified and given an opportunity to vote.

I'm still trying to figure out how this country encourages people to give a shit about voting and DOESN'T schedule major voting time on a weekend ... you know, when motherfuckers are less likely to be at a job.

If you held it on a weekend fewer people would show up.

I do think people should, by law, be allowed to show up to work late or leave early on election days. The only stipulation I'd add is that they must give the employer two weeks notice so the employer can work out schedules and whatnot.

If you held it on a weekend fewer people would show up.

Fewer people than as it is right now? You're joking.

I'll bet they're not when it comes to collecting taxes.

I fail to see how this applies but yes, because that can come from property, cars, or reported income. The tax most homeless are familiar with is sales tax.

Leisher wrote:While I agree that one person fraudulently voting as someone else isn't stealing a presidential election, both of us are just speculating. Unless we know every instance of voter fraud, voter intimidation, and/or blatant vote manipulation we're just spouting opinion.

I mean voter fraud does happen. A lot. Go dig up our threads on the previous two presidential elections and you'll see a LOT of examples, and more than just 1-2 votes stolen. This is indisputable.

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_ ... none_.html
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/won ... lots-cast/
http://investigations.nbcnews.com/_news ... are-needed
http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/OTUS/vot ... d=17213376

Both parties cheat, but one party is caught getting the votes of dead people, illegals, ex-cons, and fraudulent voters more than the other by a wide, wide margin. They also happen to be the party against voter ID laws...

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/09 ... fraud.html

I mean a state ID is free, so how exactly are the poor prevented from voting? Being poor doesn't seem to stop them from signing up for entitlements or voting.

You fail to differentiate between the urban welfare poor and the rural, largely self-sufficient poor.

On a very related side note, how the fuck are these folks without IDs living day to day?

Vince could speculate on that better than I could.

Back to the topic let's cover how it's racist.

It's racist because the initial fallout from the implementation will be disproportionately non-white. That's all. Do you suppose removing them from the one-two election cycles it'll take for them to realize they need cards is the right price to pay to implement a peace-of-mind law that does nothing? Philosophical differences.

Another tactic used in this debate is to talk about it at the presidential level. This is a smart move because tens of millions of votes are cast and who cares about even 100,000 fraudulent votes, right?

If there were even enough concentration of the fraudulent votes prevented by ID laws to influence a county dogcatcher election, it might backfire. But the fraudulence is by wholesale methods. Ballot-stuffing occurs roughly on the same danger level as high-school mischief and graffiti.

Please make a logical argument for why nobody should care if their right to vote gets taken away due to voter fraud.

Aside from the ones everyone here has already made on why the American electoral system is hopeless?

In today's technological driven world, there really is no excuse for every voter to not have an ID, be in a system, and have their votes properly counted. The fact that this all isn't happening makes me believe it's because certain folks want a system that they can manipulate.

Paranoid fearmongering recommends a colossal undertaking to fix a non-problem.

GORDON wrote:The illusion that people's votes count is the ONLY thing that gives folks a feeling that their government works for them. If you chip away from that with leniency for voter fraud, then fuck it all, right?

'Fuck it all' has been your position for quite a while now. D'you really think that policing voter fraud via ineffectual ID laws will distract voters from the uncountable other failings of a disappointing system? For recent example, granting the nomination to the two least-liked and least-likeable candidates available?

TPRJones wrote: Plus when you don't have a car and live in a place without public transportation, traveling 20+ miles to the DMV can be a real pain in the ass. Not to mention what you are supposed to do if you work a daily grind job that has no option for time off for that sort of thing. Free only works in this case for this purpose if they also accept applications via mail, which they do not.

Must be a bitch when they get sick and die because they can't get a ride to the clinic or take an afternoon off.

Someone want to put up a map of medical facilities versus places to get ID cards? Also, sickness can get to a point where it can't be hidden, your ass collapses, and an ambulance hauls you to the ER.

Indeed. The homeless are still citizens who are meant to be able to vote, but it's hard to show two recent utility bills as proof of residence when you don't even have a home.

Homeless people should be allowed to vote, and are generally known to homeless workers in an area. A program could be created to ensure they're identified. This isn't an insurmountable problem.

No, but if you are going to add in a law that causes the problem you need to come with the problems presurmounted in the law itself. I have not seen that happen. Until it does, the laws directly harms the homeless.

Plus when you don't have a car and live in a place without public transportation, traveling 20+ miles to the DMV can be a real pain in the ass

Covered earlier.

No. You said something vague about a bus organized by some private citizens? And will this theoretical bus be servicing the entirety of the United States? As above, unless the law includes the solutions to the problems it is introducing that harm poor citizens, then it is an anti-poor law. Hand waving a mythical bus at it doesn't answer anything.

Not to mention what you are supposed to do if you work a daily grind job that has no option for time off for that sort of thing.

This poor person that works 24/7/365, well, their vote doesn't matter. Why? Because if they can't get time off for an ID, how the fuck will they ever get time off to vote?!?

Don't be a moron. You don't have to work 24/7/365 to have this problem. You just have to work when the DMV is open, which is basically regular business hours, and not be in a position to get time off without risking your job for it. When the DMV is open 24 hours a day then your response here will have some sort of sense to it.

As to when they would vote that is a problem that doesn't currently exist. They can just mail it in.

Seriously though, would it really be that difficult to find a solution for them too?

No, it would not. But don't take away their ability to vote because you passed a shitty law without those solutions included and expect people not to bitch at you for pissing in their democracy.

Long story short, it is my opinion that if you can't manage to find a local government office to get your free state ID, you have bigger problems than being able.to cast a vote.

True, but isn't the basis of democracy the idea that voting is the fundamental method in which you have a chance to solve those problems?

What's the point if you aren't allowed to make a simple rule to ensure the voting process is honest?

As long as the rule doesn't exclude one class of valid citizens more than others I have no problem with it.

Make state IDs free, provide a method to apply remotely, and make an allowance for the homeless and I think it's a fine idea.

It just isn't that difficult. There aren't enough people that are truly isolated for it to be as big an issue as it is.

Ultimately it's like fine-tuning a justice system. As any justice system approaches the ability to ensure 100% of guilty defendants go to prison it starts to incarcerate a lot of innocent people in the process. You have to decide how many innocents in jail is an acceptable level. The same thing is true of the voting process; as you approach 100% certainty that all voters are valid you also start to deny votes to some valid citizens in the process.

Personally I think that innocents being wronged by the government is 100 times worse than a citizen being wronged by another individual, so I'd set it at less than 1%. A fair justice system will incarcerate no more than 1 innocent person for every 99 guilty that slip through. And a fair voting system should deny the vote to no more than 1 valid voter for every 99 fake votes that slip through. But that's just my own personal setting, because I find governments harming their citizens to be far more onerous then when individuals do it. If you prefer to trust the government I can see setting a higher ratio although I would disagree.

TPRJones wrote:True, but isn't the basis of democracy the idea that voting is the fundamental method in which you have a chance to solve those problems?

Lack of competence is not something the government can solve for you. That's why we have a huge nanny state now,

Long story short, it is my opinion that if you can't manage to find a local government office to get your free state ID, you have bigger problems than being able.to cast a vote.

Yes, you could have the problem of your state being an asshole about handing out those IDs much in the same way some states are bitches about:

1) abortion
2) gun control
3) slander, libel, or other "free" speech
4) ad nauseum

Need I go on about how far a state will go to do an end run around federal statutes it finds inconvenient? Furthermore, if we're talking voter fraud, I'm considerably more worried about the gov't tossing votes away than I am about citizens adding extra ones.

"Yeah, we had to throw out four counties of ballots. There were some ... irregularities with their voter ID cards. Anyhow, it looks like the referendum to raise the pay of state senators passed. Close as hell. We were four counties down until just a few minutes ago."

Bernie really, really wants you to believe there are only two parties.

We have and have had [two parties] for a very long period of time — and I know a little bit about this, as the longest serving independent member of Congress."

Wow. "Independent." That's stretching the definition of the word.

538 predicts 337 to 201. I'm guessing Trump loses AZ, SC, and GA.

TheCatt wrote:538 predicts 337 to 201. I'm guessing Trump loses SC and GA.

The only state they project for Donnie Dorko which keeps their prediction from being a total drubbing is Texas.

I bet a dollar Romney could jump in right now as an independent and win.

GORDON wrote:I bet a dollar Romney could jump in right now as an independent and win.

If he could get on enough state ballots, I think you're right.

GORDON wrote:I bet a dollar Romney could jump in right now as an independent and win.

No, but I bet that Bloomberg could have