Progressivism vs. Conservatism

[GORDON]

99.9% of all jobs are meaningless, in the long term. No great works of art are being created. No lives are being saved or even changed.

That's because 99.9% of all great art and great actions that make a difference weren't done as part of a job. In almost all cases having a job is just about paying the bills, it's what you do in your free time when you aren't working to pay the bills that really makes the impact. And I'd argue that having kids gives you less free time, thus reducing your potential to impact history.

But you were the one who suggested that holding a job meant you were out of your adolescent phase of life.... I was disagreeing and asking how that was so.

[TPRJones]

Unless you were using the figurative "you," and not the definite "you," meaning "GORDON." I was using figurative "you" earlier.

Yes, I was using the figurative "you". Trust me, when I get ready to call you old and useless I'll be sure to use your name directly. You've got a couple of useful years left in you, though. :p

[GORDON]

The only response I can think of that you might consider would be this list of - by your definition - adolescents with no meaning to their lives: Socrates, Hannibal, Alexander the Great, Julius Caesar, Virgil, Jesus Christ, the emperor Hadrian, Gregory the Great, the Venerable Bede, St. Boniface, Hildebrand, Abelard and Heloise, Joan of Arc, Savonarola, Erasmus, Leonardo da Vinci, Queen Catherine Howard, Lady Jane Grey, Mary I, Elizabeth I, Henry III of France, Queen Christina of Sweden, Newton, William III and Mary II, Charles II of Spain, Alexander Pope, Frederick the Great of Prussia, Charlotte Corday, Alexander I of Russia, George Washington, Jane Austen, John Keats, Jane and Thomas Carlyle, Pio Nono, Florence Nightingale, Emily Bronte, George Elliot, Henry James, George Bernard Shaw, Vincent van Gogh, Lenin, Sydney and Beatrice Webb, Adolf Hitler, the Duke and Duchess of Windsor, Frieda Kahlo, Edward Heath, Nowell Coward, and Anne Frank.

It's awesome that you just listed 35, or so, people in all of history who changed the world and/or were born into nobility. What does that mean to a few other billion people in the world looking for meaning in their lives?

[TPRJones]

But you were the one who suggested that holding a job meant you were out of your adolescent phase of life.... I was disagreeing and asking how that was so.

Because adolescence is a time to living with your parents like a parasite. If you are no longer a parasite living off the work of another then you are by definition no longer an adolescent.

I thought you were going off on a tangent here and was answering that point along side the other. Are you implying that no adolescent has ever done anything great?

[TPRJones]

It's awesome that you just listed 35, or so, people in all of history who changed the world and/or were born into nobility. What does that mean to a few other billion people in the world looking for meaning in their lives?

You are the one making the all-or-nothing argument that having children is the only way to find meaning or be meaningful. I only have to provide a single counter example to show you are wrong. I've provided many. I could provide many more if you prefer.

EDIT: Sorry, I meant to say asking questions that imply the all-or-nothing arguement, etc. :p



Edited By TPRJones on 1372706921

[GORDON]

Unless you were using the figurative "you," and not the definite "you," meaning "GORDON." I was using figurative "you" earlier.

Yes, I was using the figurative "you". Trust me, when I get ready to call you old and useless I'll be sure to use your name directly. You've got a couple of useful years left in you, though. :p

I'm really concerned about pissing people off. Not my intention at all.

I think part of what prompted this line of thought is that I have a good friend my age, married, childless, and just got snipped to completely remove the possibility of every having kids.

This guy is the most "together" person I know. Was always a good kid growing up, stable family, from country folk, so he was raised with... I don't know... and old-fashioned style, by today's standards. Married a good woman, went to college and got a good job as a CAD engineer, has hobbies, built a home theater for gaming and watching movies. But didn't want kids.

I don't often get into that subject with him, because I never wanted to be that guy who has a kid and then bugs his friends about it... but his vasectomy pretty much brought it up, when he mentioned it to me. I asked, "So that's it, definitely no kids, eh?" And he told me his goal in life: to never have people bugging him. "I have built a nice home that I enjoy being in, so I am not out and about with people annoying me. I invite who I want to come over, when I want them to come over. I make enough money that I never have to bug people for favors. I am on the do-not-call list, and we screen calls. Why would I want kids, when their sole intention in life is to bug you?"

And I think that was the saddest thing I ever heard anyone say.

[GORDON]

It's awesome that you just listed 35, or so, people in all of history who changed the world and/or were born into nobility. What does that mean to a few other billion people in the world looking for meaning in their lives?

You are the one making the all-or-nothing argument that having children is the only way to find meaning or be meaningful. I only have to provide a single counter example to show you are wrong. I've provided many. I could provide many more if you prefer.

But I said that 99.9% of people don't do anything meaningful, they aren't creating art or saving lives, and I guess I could add "they aren't capable of passing laws or starting wars" to include the list of people you mentioned. They are the .1% I excepted from my statement.

I am not sure if I agree with "living on your own = adulthood." The child phase is when mommy and daddy feed and house you, and possibly pay for your insurance. Adolescence.... the next phase... I don't know how it should be defined. Maybe... no real responsibility, all of your effort is to just amuse or take care of yourself? Still formulating thoughts.

[TPRJones]

And I think that was the <s>saddest</s> wisest thing I ever heard anyone say.

There, I fixed it for you.

I am selfish. I know this, and I acknowledge it, and I plan for it. Unlike my mother who was just as horribly selfish but decided to subject a child to a fetid combination of neglect and her selfish bullshit, I intend to never have children that have to suffer through that. That doesn't mean I don't do good things for the world; last year I personally donated over $2000 to children's charities and helped to raise another $50,000. I have founded a scholarship fund for the kid of my best college buddies and it's up over $1000 in just two years so at that rate might pay for one semester by the time she turns 18. I work at a college where I do what I can to steer these kids away from the foolishness of the general education degree and into something useful like welding or business.

I spend my time the way I want to, but also at the same time that includes making the world a better place for the children of others. On the whole, that puts me at a net positive, especially when compared to those so selfish they insist on bringing their own children into the world is a must before they will do anything positive.

[TPRJones]

But I said that 99.9% of people don't do anything meaningful

I disagree with this statement. Just because you or I haven't heard of them, that doesn't mean they didn't have some important effect on the lives around them.

Have you ever had a teacher or a doctor or a family friend (or anyone not your parents, really) that did something that was important and meaningful for you? Now picture the world as the same but with all those people removed from it; is your life in that world now radically different? If so, then they had an impact for at least one person. And for each of them there are many more having just as important an impact on other people that are not their own children.

If you want to limit this to just the people in history books then there's almost nothing to say because that's almost none of humanity. But they are the only people I can pull out of history to show you examples of because the rest aren't written into the history books to point at, by definition. That doesn't mean they never mattered.



Edited By TPRJones on 1372707878

[TheCatt]

Your buddy made his decision, and knows himself. I wouldn't say that's sad. I don't think he understands what having children means, but I don't think it's the type of thing one can put into words easily, I know I can't.

I just took a vacation with my family. It wasn't very long, but it was pretty awesome. The moment I remember best is that, to save $, we book rooms with 2 double beds for 4 people. So we had one parent sleep with a kid in each bed. And my 2 1/2 year old chose me to share her bed. The look on her face when she said "Daddy come to bed with me?" was priceless. It was like she'd won the lottery, created the cure for cancer, and defeated evil all at the same time.

[Malcolm]

So, you're saying that a clean-slate mind trumps wisdom?

I won't be that black/white, but the ability to, even temporarily, wipe your brain free from all the crap heaped onto it by societal/worldly expectations is beyond indispensable, if I may trump the superlative.

If you told my grandfather when he was young that one day a black man would be President and gays would marry he'd have 1) not believed you and then possibly 2) punched you for saying things he considered horribly offensive.

The second can still occur because humanity is just as intolerant as back in the day when Ooog started hitting Ugg with sticks because one had a nicer cave than the other.

I know I am not offending Malcolm because his brain doesn't register my premise as being possible, but like I said, not attacking anyone.

I find it difficult to envision a world in which someone has no responsibility towards anyone, even if society collapses and all order is swept away.

99.9% of all jobs are meaningless, in the long term. No great works of art are being created. No lives are being saved or even changed.

Lives being taken away or saved might be directly traceable to a one person's efforts, but the efforts of fuckloads of people beforehand mattered. Chuck Yeager breaking the sound barrier doesn't mean shit if his technicians don't keep his plane in flyable condition, because Chuck dies before doing it.

...young people are much more willing to learn and understand new things instead of clinging to their traditions and preconceptions.

Ha. 100% disagree. The young can't understand the elderly, because they have not been elderly. The elderly have all been young, they remember it, and therefor they are quick to dismiss their thoughts as fucking idiotic.

I'm about 75% with G here. The young are more apt to try new, wacky shit because, well, they've not tried it yet, and their rubbery brains think they're flexible enough to handle the consequences. The elderly who dismiss things as "youthful idiocy" and don't even try are more apt to shy away from risk, particularly if it reminds them of a stupid idea they tried in the past. Their brains resemble concrete. Just because you tried and it didn't work, whatever. Could be a solution for someone else.

Not only do they have no parents, science fiction heroes never seem to marry or have kids...

My favourite sci-fi protagonist, complete with a wife and two kids.

And I think that was the saddest thing I ever heard anyone say.

Why? If you're just going off that last sentence about kids being around just to bug you, then yeah, that seems kind of depressing. But it's his life, his psyche, his goals.

But I said that 99.9% of people don't do anything meaningful, they aren't creating art or saving lives, and I guess I could add "they aren't capable of passing laws or starting wars" to include the list of people you mentioned.

99.9% of people don't do anything meaningful for you, directly, in particular. What's "meaning?" Getting some peace treaty signed? Painting the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel? Finishing an entire set of volumes on the whole of world history up to this point in time? Giving up all your material possessions and joining a Buddhist monastery? Having loads of descendants? I'd argue meaning can be found in less glamourous, less drastic actions. I'd furthermore argue they take place every day and that they're performed by more than 0.1% of the population. You aren't the subject or object of those actions, though, so you don't notice them.



Edited By Malcolm on 1372715216