Second, i still think that us trying to help kill Shaco was the right idea. If he's allowed to run roughshot through our jungle it hurts in two ways. He's able to get fed and have good gank angles at us and it severly hurts our jungler. As you could see, Shaco was a huge problem for us and Alex barely was able to break 10k gold, so we were doomed. If we coulda killed him in his first invade it may have dettered him from trying it again and woulda helped fiddlestix along the way. Leisher was complaining that he had no minion kills once he got back to lane, but i specifically remember saying that you were even in minion kills once you got back to lane. So there was no loss there. But jungle was almost immediatly lost because we couldn't catch that damn Shaco, but i still think we made the right call.
Sure it maybe you could hear the Benny Hill theme song as we were chasing him, but Shaco is hard enough to chase down with his doppleganger. And you have to give the guy credit, he was a very good Shaco. I just don't think you can let a jungler invade and snowball the way he did. Not for a few minion kills at least.
As I told Cake last night, because he reached the same conclusion you did, that was not what I was saying. Scooty heard me correctly, not sure why you and Cake didn't.
What I was saying is that ME chasing Shaco around the jungle AT THAT MOMENT, and incidentally, the same thing happened later...was pointless. He was faster than me, we weren't communicating a good plan to cut him off, and I was out of mana and health potions.
The out of mana part is key. I couldn't Q or W him around corners or over walls. I couldn't use my E to catch up or cut him off. Thus, I was literally just chasing around a character who was faster than me hoping I could cut him off.
So while I chased Shaco with no hope of stopping him, I didn't get to refill my health, mana, farm, shop, or hit their turret. But at least we didn't get a kill!!
Meanwhile, Ez and his support spawned, shopped, pushed our lane, and took down our tower to 50% health.
So two points there:
1. We didn't communicate well enough to cut him off and get the kill.
2. We didn't know this at the time, but we would have been better served if I had simply recalled, gotten mana, healed, shopped, and then responded to Shaco or gone back into lane.
So to sum up, I was simply pointing out what went wrong. I NEVER said that we shouldn't have kept Shaco out of our jungle. I just think we needed to go about it a different way.
Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 6:10 pm
by GORDON
If their jungler is running wild all over the map, then our jungler should be the one dedicated to countering him. I was completely busy up top countering whoever that was, and I was hearing the early desperation in the voices but didn't have a clue what to do about it, it was always bottom of the map. I saw Shaco early in my lane once, and I got lucky that he turret dived me with low health and I nailed him to the turret... but I never saw him approach anyone without being invisible, and I don't know how you track a champ who is always invisible without spending all your money on pinkeye, and then you just die to 4 hidden jackboxes. If I had left to chase the invisible man all over the map, I'd have certainly fallen behind in farm and probably lost the lane, fast. It would be the same for everyone else.
So, I don't know what to do. Unless we figure out a counter, a good, aggressive jungler will always beat us?
Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 8:30 pm
by Cakedaddy
Over all, our response was horrible. Although we all responded, it wasn't coordinated, fast or deadly. It was hesitant, disorganized and ineffective. Leisher didn't want to be there and would stay in lane and only came when when peer pressure mounted. Scooty responded, but picked horrible paths to get there. We have an invisible flashing champ we are trying to send home. We needed to cast a wide net and pinch him. We didn't. We grouped up and a single flash put him out of all of our reaches. It was horrible execution because all parties involved didn't agree with what we were doing. Plus, he got lucky. Really really lucky. He'd pick exactly where he needed to go every time. I started placing wards and that got things under control. But at that point, not only had he gotten a good jump on farm, etc. He sucked the morale out of our team. We were arguing about the response, etc.
Bottom line, Shaco kills me without you guys helping me. He owns our jungle if we let him. We MUST respond, and we did. We just failed.
Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 8:38 pm
by Cakedaddy
Unless we figure out a counter, a good, aggressive jungler will always beat us?
Right now, yes. Much like any other aspect of the game, when it's new to us, we suck at it. If we saw constant aggressive junglers, we'd learn how to handle them. Last night was a rarity and it hurt.
Oh, I should add that last night was the first time I played Fiddle in months. So, there was that added to everything else.
Something I'd like to add though. . . .
Lanes. You guys are now in the habit of pushing your lanes under their turrets. I can't gank then. Then I get out of the ganking grove and get called out when I'm not there to gank when they AREN'T under their turret! I'm not saying, stop doing that. I see value in pushing them under their turret because they lose a lot of last hits to the turret. But, there's an adjustment period where I'm getting used to new laning techniques, etc.
Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 9:01 pm
by Cakedaddy
Another new topic. Due to the rest of the team calling lanes before me, I ended up in a support role. So, I went Naut as bottom support. First items were heals/wards and basic boots. First major item was Sher's Rev. Over all, I did good! Was teamed up with an Ez and we were against a Caitlyn and Lulu. Oh ya, I bought Pink Eye real early cause they were placing Vision Wards and killing my sight wards. I would hang out in the weeds and pull Caitlyn in over and over. Ez and I were both level 5, and Cait was still level ONE!! Lulu was leveling pretty even with us though. At the end of the game, Caitlyn had a Doran's blade and the healing flask item. That was it! She had 10 CS. TEN!! And it was all me baby. . . . Point being, transitioning into a support Naut from a jungle naut was easy and effective. And no, don't expect those results ever time. Cait claimed lag. . . Of course. But it was fun.
Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 9:35 pm
by Leisher
Leisher didn't want to be there and would stay in lane and only came when when peer pressure mounted.
So basically the same way you feel about ganking at bot?
He heard Leisher saying he was out of mana, so he picked up Soraka to correct that. I did a practice game with him (I was Graves) and I did not run out of mana. But, I don't think I play the same as Leisher. I don't push my lane, and simply last hit. I only use my abilities when the enemy makes a move on us. But my lane sustain was high end and made a lot of money.
Shen is the other one. Not sure of the full theory behind that one. He said he's looking for a tanky support as a second option to the squishy support that is Soraka.
He's concentrating on team buff items. But I'm not sure if those are the best items for Soraka because of how much more powerful her abilities are. I don't play support enough to speculate either way. So, Stranger, we need your thoughts.
Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 9:49 pm
by Cakedaddy
Leisher wrote:
Leisher didn't want to be there and would stay in lane and only came when when peer pressure mounted.
So basically the same way you feel about ganking at bot?
And this is what I'm talking about. . . . . .
If you have them pinned under their turret, I turn my attentions else where. Then, while I'm busy helping top who DIDN'T have his pinned, enemy bottom makes a move and pins ours. It's back and forth, in all lanes. It's hard to build a grove when things are so inconsistent. I now announce in voice chat "Bottom is pushed to their turret, heading to top" so you know. But I'm guessing you don't hear that. I will be even more vocal. I will reiterate my intentions until I receive acknowledgement. There is very little in the game that I don't vocalize. I can make sure you hear it, but I can't make you listen. But for you to say that I don't want to gank bottom is insulting and frustrating. In fact, I'm going to start pinging bottom when I say "Pushed too far to gank" so that I can show in the recording the number of times I scan for gank opportunities in each lane and when. I was getting that the other night from Gordon too. He's have Elise pinned under her turret, I'd leave top jungle. Next thing, he's dying under his while I'm bottom and he's asking if we have a jungler. . .
It's always the junger's fault. . .
Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 10:00 pm
by GORDON
Yeah. i heard you saying, "Leaving top lane" and I would internally ugh... then, the very instant you are too far away to help, their jungler comes out and ganks me.
edit - And that is all our jungler's fault.
Edited By GORDON on 1357960321
Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 10:10 pm
by Trooper
So here is my formal apology (Seeing as one has yet to be given) for my bizarre and uncalled for behavior on my last account. That was extremely childish and just plain embarrassing.... I promise to keep it friendly here, as i really only plan to use this to post my builds for people to read and criticize, and possibly partake in team discussion. Again, thanks for my second chance and i'll be sure it won't happen again.
Oh and this: "Gordon Is God" ;D
Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 10:12 pm
by GORDON
Proceed, my child.
Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 10:16 pm
by Leisher
And this is what I'm talking about. . . . . .
If you have them pinned under their turret, I turn my attentions else where. Then, while I'm busy helping top who DIDN'T have his pinned, enemy bottom makes a move and pins ours. It's back and forth, in all lanes. It's hard to build a grove when things are so inconsistent. I now announce in voice chat "Bottom is pushed to their turret, heading to top" so you know. But I'm guessing you don't hear that. I will be even more vocal. I will reiterate my intentions until I receive acknowledgement. There is very little in the game that I don't vocalize. I can make sure you hear it, but I can't make you listen. But for you to say that I don't want to gank bottom is insulting and frustrating. In fact, I'm going to start pinging bottom when I say "Pushed too far to gank" so that I can show in the recording the number of times I scan for gank opportunities in each lane and when. I was getting that the other night from Gordon too. He's have Elise pinned under her turret, I'd leave top jungle. Next thing, he's dying under his while I'm bottom and he's asking if we have a jungler. . .
It's always the junger's fault. . .
And this is what I'm talking about...
First of all, I jungle too, so save your pity party for someone who doesn't know the woes of the jungle.
Secondly, I was merely acting as childish as you were in the statement I quoted.
What was I doing when you asked for help with the invading Shaco? What took me so long to get to the jungle? Were you listening in game when I said it or post game when we were discussing it? I'm thinking not.
According to your own words, I just didn't feel like it and had to be pressured.
Here's the reality: I was fighting Ezreal near his turret at the time, and even said so in voice. I guess you didn't hear that, huh? Maybe I should repeat it next time until I hear acknowledgement? Or how about I ping for you to retreat since I was dealing with my own shit?
It's always the ADC's fault...
Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 10:23 pm
by Trooper
In this case i believe it was merely miscommunication.... During a very hectic moment in-game, certain things just weren't understood... I believe Leisher is right in saying that it would be stupid to retreat your current fight to help alllllllllll the way across the board in the jungle.... however, had you not been busy, your presence certainly would have been appreciated. In my opinion, having mid (myself) and bottom support (ronnie) respond is MORE than enough.... Its insane that the 3 of us failed to locate and defeat Shaco on our own..... I believe that is the problem here, not the lack of response from our busy adc. 6
Any suggestions comments concerns or criticism on my Shen and/or Soraka would be much appreciated. Thanks.
Posted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 3:46 am
by Trooper
"This unit is a flippin' ninja" hahahaha, I always saw that when I played Kennen and wondered what it did. Turns out, if any two champion: Kennen Akali or Shen, are on the same team they receive a -1 health debuff for having more than one ninja on your team.... Apparently ninja's work alone say's Riot heheh. I liked how Leona's Sunlight spell does 1 less damage to champions wearing sunglasses as well, like all the commando skins for example.... So it turns out skins aren't a total waste of money after all!!
Posted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 3:25 pm
by GORDON
Trooper:
Shen is prolly my 2nd most played champ these days, so I know how he works, but I thought I saw you do something last night that I didn't know.... or, I didn't see what I thought I saw.
His ult... I thought you could only teleport to an ally, but I *thought* I saw you use it to teleport to rescue a turret from enemy minions, without an ally being there. I think I didn't see what I thought I saw, but I thought I would ask you anyway, just in case.
Posted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 7:16 pm
by Trooper
I wish! That would be pretty awesome, but no =/ you cannot teleport to an allied turret. The only champion that can influence a turret in anyway is Janna. Her shield can be applied to both turrets and champions (i believe minions aswell.....), and no I didn't just learn that from the facts video above heheh, Janna was the first champion I ever unlocked and played.
But for you to say that I don't want to gank bottom is insulting and frustrating. In fact, I'm going to start pinging bottom when I say "Pushed too far to gank" so that I can show in the recording the number of times I scan for gank opportunities in each lane and when. I was getting that the other night from Gordon too. He's have Elise pinned under her turret, I'd leave top jungle. Next thing, he's dying under his while I'm bottom and he's asking if we have a jungler. . .