Welcome to Thunderdome

Leisher wrote: White guilt at its finest. Listen, his heart is truly in the right place, and while I'm certain being white did open some doors for him, he overlooks the most important part of his story: Money. He didn't succeed because of white privilege, he succeeded because his family had money.

But they had money, because they were white... I don't disagree, social/financial stratification is a large hurdle to overcome, but race definitely influences wealth. He starts the story with how black people weren't allowed to have assets/wealth, thus he got a big leg up in the beginning.

Leisher wrote: I think I'm fine with removing stuff with the stipulation that they be placed into a museum. We should never forget our past.

I'm certainly pro-removal of the ones in main downtowns, parks, etc.

Leisher wrote: won't even comment on the other quoted stuff. Stupidity like that isn't worth the typing.

Just a reminder that these people exist. And call 911 of all things to complain.

Poverty isn't genetic, sure. But rising out of poverty is hard. Environments are unequal, different people have many more safeguards/safety nets than others. I could have had a lot of issues, and still succeeded. My parents were healthy + alive, made good money, I went to good schools, etc.

I'm the kind of asshole who says that whining doesn't help anything, just bring solutions and fix it.

That being said, I don't understand this white-guilt navel-gazing, at all. What is it intended to accomplish? I have a theory, and it is disturbing, to me.

1. Since 1964, we have tons of laws on the books about "can't discriminate based on race." The law is set. If it is being broken, bring in the justice system. If the justice system is broken, fix it. Oh... are you saying that voting doesn't work, and you can't change anything? I feel like I've said that before. I'm a white male, and I can't fix this.

2. Yes, in this country, some white people have had a multi-generational advantage in the economy. POC looting doesn't help. POC keeping each other from succeeding because they "Act too white" doesn't help. I'm a (relatively) poor white male with no power. I can't fix this.

3. Acknowledging that one had white privilege growing up is one thing, and a perfectly valid observation. But what's the point? It's whining, not fixing. Are all white people supposed to be punished? As a father of a white male, I have a dog in this hunt, and an opinion. I will fight against any initiative that will put my son at a legislated disadvantage based on his skin color, but this is the vibe I get these days. White people are bad, and need to pay. If you want me to get on board with your cause, that isn't the way to do it. Blaming your problems on a race is how the ghettos got cleared of Jews, with wild public support.

I would think the goal is to have more equal starting conditions, like schools and healthcare.

This feels important.

https://youtu.be/Kkc2KinHWiM?t=12

TheCatt wrote: But they had money, because they were white... I don't disagree, social/financial stratification is a large hurdle to overcome, but race definitely influences wealth. He starts the story with how black people weren't allowed to have assets/wealth, thus he got a big leg up in the beginning.

Well, I addressed all of that with the evolution of society, and how people were getting rights, but it takes time for the changes to happen. Their family got money early on before the rights movement, but when his mom bought the house in the suburbs, they barely had enough anymore because they were out of that family. Thus, all his talk about the money his family had made was now moot. His mom took everything they had left after the divorce to buy that house, which then gave him advantages. And again, you cannot overlook his "mostly white" comment. That alone indicates that change was happening, doors were opening to POC, and hard work was being paid off. Sure, in tiny amounts, but it was happening.

TheCatt wrote: I'm certainly pro-removal of the ones in main downtowns, parks, etc.

Agreed, but again, to a point. We don't need Confederate generals anywhere except museums. However, do we really need to pull down a statue of George Washington because he was a slave owner?

TheCatt wrote: Just a reminder that these people exist.

I am all too aware.

TheCatt wrote: And call 911 of all things to complain.

People call 911 when McDonald's fucks up their order, so this isn't shocking.

TheCatt wrote: Poverty isn't genetic, sure.

Well, let's not jump to conclusions. Didn't you watch the video? We need to find that episode of into the wormhole or whatever it's called.

TheCatt wrote: But rising out of poverty is hard. Environments are unequal, different people have many more safeguards/safety nets than others.

No argument, but implying it cannot be done is bullshit. And more to the point, implying it's other people's fault isn't just bullshit, it's dangerous to both the person you're saying it to and the person you accusing of it. "Whitey is holding you down, so you shouldn't ever bother trying to work hard and study."

BTW, not that you asked, but my parents did it. Their cracker asses were reliant upon the kindness of a nearby pizza shop owner who would call them quite often with a free pizza for "an order someone cancelled". They always to choose between bills or food. Neither had a degree, my mom still doesn't. But both busted their asses to get to where they are now. My mom moved up in her company from a receptionist to become the Office Manager that knew so much about the business that when she once quit they begged her back with a huge raise as everything was fucked. My dad got his degree years ago and is the first person in the family to do so. (Remember, I'm only a 2nd generation American.) He went from being a cop to owning his own business.

NOTE: Gordon and Catt's latest two posts are new since I wrote this and forgot to hit submit a few hours ago. Not ignoring those, but I'll get back to those later. My next two hours are dedicated to Dell.

Leisher wrote: BTW, not that you asked, but my parents did it. Their cracker asses were reliant upon the kindness of a nearby pizza shop owner who would call them quite often with a free pizza for "an order someone cancelled".

SO... whitey helped whiteys get ahead?

TheCatt wrote: I would think the goal is to have more equal starting conditions, like schools and healthcare.

I'm not touching healthcare, because IMO the current system is fucked beyond fixing.

But for schooling, how do you fix it? What if the problem is lack of good parenting at home?

GORDON wrote: But for schooling, how do you fix it?

I went to inner city public schools for a few years, they were garbage.

We could start with how schools are funded. Schools are primarily funded via property taxes. So places like New Jersey (and many, many others) tax the rich people and have small local (town) school districts. Meanwhile the kids in Newark and Hoboken get much less. Some of those townships spend $32k per pupil. That's 25% more than the fanciest private school where I live.

What if the problem is lack of good parenting at home?

Fix what you can.

I'm not sure I understand how better funding fixes parents who won't parent their children, and teach them to respect teachers.

GORDON wrote: I'm not sure I understand how better funding fixes parents who won't parent their children, and teach them to respect teachers.

There are multiple items to fix.

I don't think anything else is going to matter if the students will not learn. New chromebooks wont fix the methhead single parent household that doesn't have any food in it.

I knew that article was going to create a storm of "I don't owe nobody nothing" responses.

Who owes what. Be specific.

GORDON wrote: I don't think anything else is going to matter if the students will not learn. New chromebooks wont fix the methhead single parent household that doesn't have any food in it.

This isn't wrong no matter the race or sex of the child/parent.

Cakedaddy wrote: I knew that article was going to create a storm of "I don't owe nobody nothing" responses.

You lost me with this comment. What storm? Who said "I don't owe nobody nothing"? And if someone did...who do they owe and what do they owe?

I guess because I can't be, then nobody does. And everything is equal and fine and no laws are ignored and they are just lazy.

There's are a CRAZY number of examples of how broken things are. But because no one is spelling out the perfect exact way to fix everything, then we should just do nothing a pretend like it's all their fault.

Fix the schools - they don't want to learn anyway
Highering laws are being ignored - create quotas to force people to follow them - my son is being discriminated against because less qualified POC is getting his spot. Maybe he's less qualified because his schools are shit. But acknowledge there's a problem, don't be happy with the solution that other people came up with. Just getting it canceled and sit back doing nothing except tell them to try again.
Ignore white privilege, rename it white guilt in the middle of the discussion then quote a black man that says people need to work harder. No change needed.

The best post so far was "There are multiple items to fix". Common response "well, it better not affect me".

Leisher wrote: who do they owe and what do they owe

See above. Because we can't be exact and specific, there is no problem and nothing to see here.

That little rant there is such a mess I honestly don't know where to start. So I'll stick to the two sentences that seem to apply to my response, which was not, by any stretch of the imagination, a "storm of 'I don't owe anybody nothing'":

Cakedaddy wrote: Ignore white privilege, rename it white guilt in the middle of the discussion then quote a black man that says people need to work harder. No change needed.

You were clearly skimming or are too emotionally charged on this topic. I did not rename white privilege white guilt. I said the author has white guilt. I also pointed out that his white skin absolutely was probably a factor in open doors for him, but he never would have had a chance if his mom didn't have the money from her divorce to buy that home in the suburbs. Please show me where that's wrong.

Does the white man get zero fucking credit for anything he does? You know, except for when he's accused of everything evil in the world. Or is his every fucking accomplishment only due to the color of his skin?

There's a middle ground here between white privilege and work hard. That's where my response was pointed. You chose to shove it into "no problem here at all", which is also something I never stated.

Cakedaddy wrote:

Leisher wrote: who do they owe and what do they owe

See above. Because we can't be exact and specific, there is no problem and nothing to see here.

Ask a question, don't get an answer...

I realize why you are emotionally charged, but for fuck's sake, let's climb down from the hyperbole box for a moment. At no point did I state there was no problem and there's nothing to see here.

There has to be a middle ground between "bend over and grab your ankles" and "I don't owe nobody nothing", right? Can you meet me there or do you want to continue telling me what my opinion is?

What a time to be alive.

Today alone my friend here basically calls me a racist or ignorant of race issues.

Elsewhere on FB I was attacked for defending the BLM protest.

And in another place I was attacked by a family member for defending the protests, but not the rioting/looting/murder.

You, literally, can't win.

As I suggested elsewhere, I guess I and my son will just buy the self-flagellation whips until someone has any idea how to fix whatever the problem is, when it gets defined. And/or loot Target stores.

Leisher wrote: What a time to be alive.

Today alone my friend here basically calls me a racist or ignorant of race issues.

Elsewhere on FB I was attacked for defending the BLM protest.

And in another place I was attacked by a family member for defending the protests, but not the rioting/looting/murder.

You, literally, can't win.

I don't think he called you a racist.

Also you cannot win. I get the same crap when I defend something to the left of what y'all like and then and to the right of what another group likes etc etc it just sucks to be a moderate.