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Posted: Thu May 02, 2013 3:01 pm
by Cakedaddy
Ok, this is where I say YOU are wrong! By flipping the tank, who rarely dies, because they are the tank, we burn all our our abilities on them. Our damage dealers are distracted and focusing the tank. Meanwhile, their CC start flowing, their damage dealers are entering the fight, uncontested, etc. And THEY are attack our damage dealers. Fight ends with MAYBE their tank dead, but three of our squishiest champs dead. We just did exactly what they wanted us to do. Every team in the game wants the enemy to engage their tank.
If we had the discipline to ignore the flipped tank and simply continue waiting for their squishies to become available, this would be a non-issue. But we don't. So, I'm asking that you stop doing it! However, if everyone PROMISES not to fully engage the tank, then I'll drop it and happily accept the flipped tank. Ranged basic attacks only on the flipped tank is the only acceptable response from our team. If we try to burst/kill him, we just did EXACTLY what the enemy wants us to. You never primary the tank. Never. Ever. In a team fight situation, if their tank in the primary target, we are doing it wrong and will fail. There is no situation where you primary their tank during a team fight.
Posted: Thu May 02, 2013 3:03 pm
by GORDON
Stranger wrote:or if we are going to send someone off to split push then the other 4 of us should be grouped up to create a diversion and make the other team decide who they wanna confront.
I agree with this. If we are all mid and nothing is happening and I say something like, "covering top," then either call me back if you want to, say, push mid, or take that as a sign that if I am covering/pushing top, then push mid or bottom and make them choose a kill on me, or a turret.
I guess there is a difference though between clearing the gob of red hitting our turret and pushing out solo to their turret. Different situation, different strategy.
But yeah, if I am pushing their second turret and hitting it, then hit them somewhere else hard. Make them choose. I will try to call out when this happens as I get frequently surprised when one of us is doing the same thing and I didn't notice it until the turret drops.
Posted: Thu May 02, 2013 3:06 pm
by GORDON
Cakedaddy wrote:There is no situation where you primary their tank during a team fight.
Except when there is. The tanks are never the primary, but sometimes when they are in retreat they are the only ones we can catch. I don't think anyone is going to run past the tank trying to catch the flipping Fizz or bounding Nidalee who will never be caught.
If they happen to all turn around at once when the tank is engaged, then we need to deal with it, but we can't just ignore the guy if he is the only one we can catch.
Posted: Thu May 02, 2013 3:13 pm
by Cakedaddy
I'm actually referring to the times when they are pushing our turrets, or on dragon/baron, etc. Yes, I agree that we can't just roll over and give them these things. But at the same time, 'something' isn't a plan. "We can't just give them our turrets. We have to do something to try to stop them". Common statement. Unacceptable from now on! Propose a solution that we can participate in. "Singed, flip anyone you can reach and that's our target". That's a horrible plan. . . but at least it puts us all on the same page and we can do it as a team.
Posted: Thu May 02, 2013 3:19 pm
by GORDON
Yeah, "do something" is distracting, because at least for me, I am already trying to do something. I DON'T purposely primary a tank during a team fight. Y'all have probably seen me make several failed attempts to snag a squishy as they were aggressive near our turret. I typically do not snag a tank, instead, in that situation. I pull back as everyone groans, "oh no, singed..." into their microphones thinking I am going to chase a squishy into a pack of 5 of them.
Sometimes I snag a tank accidentally, granted, but it is hard to target them when they overlap and stack up. And there is no way to verbalize that when it happens, in time. "Flipping Lux/no wait grabbed Nasus by accident/don't attack/move after Darius who is moving in" just isn't possible when it happens in a second. No way the enemy team verbalizes it either. We just have to know.
Posted: Thu May 02, 2013 4:38 pm
by Stranger
while i agree that we should have a better plan of action when it comes to intiating and who we are targeting, some of it just needs to be known. When i play Zyra i shouldn't have to say every time i'm throwing out a vine to entangle someone. Its on a pretty low cooldown and i can spam it all day, it just so happens that its a pretty good initiate. If i get a squishy with it now you guys have gotta follow up, if i happen to land it on their tank, oh well let it go, i'll have another vine ready in a few seconds. And if my ult is up i usually follow up the snare with the big AOE knockup.
When i'm Leona her whole game is about initiating. If i have my ult up ill call it out and be ready for the explosion followed up by me diving in.
Sona, not so much of an initiator but her ult can be for sure. Lulu, no initiating there, she needs to be in the back line.
So i think when we enter a game we need to know who our initiators are first and foremost. Singed can obviously be one, Leona is another, Nocturne and Nautilus are good for it. and of course Amummu but we never get to see him. Are there any others that im missing? Then when we decide who has what roll in the fights we should better be able to execute them.
Posted: Thu May 02, 2013 4:52 pm
by GORDON
You are right that we should know Zyra better. I have no knowledge of Zyra at all since I don't lane with her and haven't seen her in game, much. 
I know you entangle peeps with vines. I don't know the range or the cooldowns and I can't really visualize your ult and I know sometimes she leaves plant turrets but I don't know the circumstances. I just haven't seen her enough.
So she has a quick cooldown long range tangle?
Posted: Thu May 02, 2013 5:01 pm
by Stranger
her E is a medium range entangle. Its a skill shot that can snare up to two people at a time. And yes it has a pretty quick cooldown.
Usually my combo that im trying to pull off when i have my ult up is to snare someone (or two), drop a couple of plants on them at the same time so they are getting hit while snared. I then follow that up with my ult which which is an AOE knockup, it will knockup everyone in the big circle and it also puts any plants that i have out into a frenzy giving them extra attack speed and AD.
So ideally when i can get off my whole combo at least one or two people are locked up for a good 3 seconds and whatever other enemies that are in my circle get knocked up.
Posted: Thu May 02, 2013 9:33 pm
by Cakedaddy
Yes, you can throw your vine and hope we notice, read your intentions and react properly. Or, you can call out your intentions and we can follow up with more confidence. We are in voice. It takes almost no effort to call out your intended snare. We then know what we are looking for and can react more intelligently. If you say "Snaring lux" and you snare Nasus, we know it was a failed snare. If you say nothing and snare Nasus, we are left to wonder "Did he want to attack him? Am I letting my team down if I don't engage? I don't want to not be in the fight and be the reason we lose." Just say it. It doesn't hurt. It only helps. Hate us for not just 'knowing' what you meant while you say it. That's ok. I can deal with that. I'd rather you hate me for not reading your mind and forcing you to speak, but winning, than you hating me for not reading your mind and losing.
Posted: Thu May 02, 2013 9:39 pm
by Cakedaddy
Oh, and another schedule change means I'm available again tonight.
Posted: Thu May 02, 2013 9:51 pm
by GORDON
I am on but will not be on late.
I will require a portion of.... no, I will require ALL my cunning to get through tomorrow. So I need a good night's sleep.
Posted: Fri May 03, 2013 1:00 am
by Chaotic Obsidian
Okay, so we actually had some decent team fights today, but we do still need to work out a lot of the kinks in our plans:
1): We do need to focus more on CS in a lane and not going balls to the wall on everything. 30 CS > 1 Kill, so if we can all get advantages in CS, then we just have to wait for the jungler to come by for kill opportunities.
2): A "Successful" gank doesn't always have to end in a kill. If you burn a flash, an ignite, an exhaust, a teleport, an ult, it's a successful gank. It's all about timing as a jungler, and you have to keep some lane pressure on globally to be effective. Jungling is incredibly difficult to do incredibly well. That Jarvan in our first game today was a very good example. He was everywhere, and he was everywhere early. Every lane had an opportunity for a kill within 10 minutes.
3): If you guys would like for me to, I will continue to call shots and try to make the plays, but we all have to listen to the call. If we want to elect a shot caller and said caller makes a call, we ALL have to follow it. We have to pay attention to the call and we all have to try to execute it. If you have to B, let them know. If you're low on mana, let them know. When a call is made and fails, it's usually because we have 4 in a brush, and someone goes off split pushing without saying anything. I will make my shots more specific, but if we only have 4 that will listen, we can't do anything anyway.
No one can make a 100% accurate call in every single instance, but with a shot caller, we assume that they will be right a larger majority than anyone else when decisions are made.
4): We need to practice when to peel off objectives and when to take objectives. When we are baroning and a lone ranger walks in, the ADC and jungler stick on Baron, and everyone else peels. It's actually taught that way at a professional level. When we go in for a turret, we should be content with just chunking it little by little. We generally go all in, pull in somebody, they flash out, the other team throws down their CC, and the turret kills us all. If we send in our long range harassers with each wave, it'll be gone within 2 minutes. We don't need to all in a tower. Just pushing minions to a tower is good enough most times. They will lose experience and gold, and as a result, we essentially gain it.
I'm sure I'll get someone that doesn't like these points, and that's great since these are our discussion forums. It's just something to read and try to improve upon. If we hope to get better, we have to try to cut down on sloppy team fights.